Go to Post I have trouble believing that there's really a regional that isn't fun... - psquared89 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Motors
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2010, 15:16
Weird Al/ Tony Weird Al/ Tony is offline
Weird Al the Creator
AKA: Anthony. or Tony, not Toni i'm a guy!
FRC #1322 (G.R.A.Y.T. Leviathons)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Fenton, Michigan
Posts: 14
Weird Al/ Tony is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Weird Al/ Tony
Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

I am building my own battle bot and I'm working on running it off of two 12V batteries. It will be driven by two heavy sump pump motors. I will only be able to obtain a possible half power off of the batteries and I need to know if that will ruin the engines. I have been told it will by a freind but I dont beleive her. So I need some help. I dont want to waste/ruin the motors after all!
__________________
I am Weird Al and I'm here to play! Check out the team:www.team1322.org !
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2010, 16:52
Daniel_LaFleur's Avatar
Daniel_LaFleur Daniel_LaFleur is offline
Mad Scientist
AKA: Me
FRC #2040 (DERT)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,981
Daniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Daniel_LaFleur
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weid Al/ Toni View Post
I am building my own battle bot and I'm working on running it off of two 12V batteries. It will be driven by two heavy sump pump motors. I will only be able to obtain a possible half power off of the batteries and I need to know if that will ruin the engines. I have been told it will by a freind but I dont beleive her. So I need some help. I dont want to waste/ruin the motors after all!
OK, There's not quite enough info here but I'll give it a try.

By "only be able to obtain a possible half power off of the batteries" do you mean that the pump is 24V and you are running it at 12V? If so, then your friend is absolutely correct. The motor will try and do the same amount of work with only 1/2 the voltage thus requireing twice (roughly) the current. This will heat the motor more.

In addition, most sump pumps are designed to work submerged in water. They use the water to cool the motor, thus will need extra cooling if it is run using air to cool it.
__________________
___________________
"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
- Tennyson, Ulysses
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2010, 17:04
Stephen Kowski's Avatar
Stephen Kowski Stephen Kowski is offline
BSEE, MSEE, JD
AKA: employed
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Saint Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,144
Stephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Stephen Kowski
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weid Al/ Toni View Post
I am building my own battle bot and I'm working on running it off of two 12V batteries. It will be driven by two heavy sump pump motors. I will only be able to obtain a possible half power off of the batteries and I need to know if that will ruin the engines. I have been told it will by a freind but I dont beleive her. So I need some help. I dont want to waste/ruin the motors after all!
What are your loading conditions? Do you have a model number for the motor so that we might be able to better understand? Are you using the batteries that we used for competition or are these some other chemistry (NiCd, Li-ion)? are these batteries in series, parallel, or individually connected to the motors?

Why are you only able to obtain half power? How are you gearing this drive train? wheel size? wheel traction? In general, depending on the loading condition, the power your motor demands is not a static number

Will it burn up? Well that depends a lot on the motors thermal constants (casing, efficiency, etc) and it's ability to handle a stall current among other things

More information is required to give you a good answer.

Last edited by Stephen Kowski : 02-04-2010 at 17:12.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2010, 22:53
Weird Al/ Tony Weird Al/ Tony is offline
Weird Al the Creator
AKA: Anthony. or Tony, not Toni i'm a guy!
FRC #1322 (G.R.A.Y.T. Leviathons)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Fenton, Michigan
Posts: 14
Weird Al/ Tony is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Weird Al/ Tony
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

when I posted this I knew nothing about the topic I was asking about. so here arwe the facts. I have a 115 A/C volt motor, I'm using a 12 D/C volt battery to power it. the motor is 5.7 amps, 60 hz, 1725 RPM, and it is non submersible. air cooled and isnt ment to be wet. I have a model #: xqj48517028j p and I ndont know what the p means. it also says it is thermally protected, single phase. what is single phase? and it is 60 cycle? what is that. fla= 5.8 sf= 1.0 and I have no clue what any of that means. help me out, thanks.
__________________
I am Weird Al and I'm here to play! Check out the team:www.team1322.org !
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-04-2010, 23:57
kevin.li.rit's Avatar
kevin.li.rit kevin.li.rit is offline
Imaginary Friend
AKA: Kevin Li
FRC #0596 (SciClones)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Hopkinton, Massachusetts
Posts: 936
kevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to kevin.li.rit
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weid Al/ Toni View Post
when I posted this I knew nothing about the topic I was asking about. so here arwe the facts. I have a 115 A/C volt motor, I'm using a 12 D/C volt battery to power it. the motor is 5.7 amps, 60 hz, 1725 RPM, and it is non submersible. air cooled and isnt ment to be wet. I have a model #: xqj48517028j p and I ndont know what the p means. it also says it is thermally protected, single phase. what is single phase? and it is 60 cycle? what is that. fla= 5.8 sf= 1.0 and I have no clue what any of that means. help me out, thanks.
My guess is that you won't be able to run it directly off the 12 bolt battery. It sounds like it uses the 110 volts out of your wall which is single phase. I.E. there is only one sinusoidal wave coming out of your standard wall outlet. (opposed to 3 sinusoids in 3 phased 220 volts). 60 cycle refers to the 60 hz which is the frequency of the sinusoid in your wall.

The thermal protection most likely means that the motor will stop running if it gets to hot to prevent it from damaging itself.
__________________
Kevin Li

596 - Sciclones
1405 - Finney Falcons
2262 - Holliston Panthers
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 00:08
Weird Al/ Tony Weird Al/ Tony is offline
Weird Al the Creator
AKA: Anthony. or Tony, not Toni i'm a guy!
FRC #1322 (G.R.A.Y.T. Leviathons)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Fenton, Michigan
Posts: 14
Weird Al/ Tony is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Weird Al/ Tony
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

well what are sinusoids. and it is a wall plug type motor. so that means like even if I wanted to I couldnt convert it? and what about like wheelchair motors cause I got those. and I mean what if I used like a fan motor from a like normal around the house use post fan or whatever? would i not be able to use that with a battery.
__________________
I am Weird Al and I'm here to play! Check out the team:www.team1322.org !
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 00:14
kevin.li.rit's Avatar
kevin.li.rit kevin.li.rit is offline
Imaginary Friend
AKA: Kevin Li
FRC #0596 (SciClones)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Hopkinton, Massachusetts
Posts: 936
kevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to kevin.li.rit
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weid Al/ Toni View Post
well what are sinusoids. and it is a wall plug type motor. so that means like even if I wanted to I couldnt convert it? and what about like wheelchair motors cause I got those. and I mean what if I used like a fan motor from a like normal around the house use post fan or whatever? would i not be able to use that with a battery.
Sinusoid are sine waves. You would need an inverter to go from the DC of the battery to AC but most inverters do not produce a true sine wave. A regular house fan is mostly likely an AC motor; all mine are. You could maybe use a fan motor off your PC which is a DC motor.

The wheel chair motors are mostly likely DC so they could be usable.

Wikipedia has good info on AC and DC
__________________
Kevin Li

596 - Sciclones
1405 - Finney Falcons
2262 - Holliston Panthers
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 00:17
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,823
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Let's put it this way: The motor runs on 115 volts. A 12V battery provides about a tenth of that.

So whatever the motor says it'll put out in terms of power, you can expect the actual power output to be no more than about a tenth of what it says if the voltage is the driving factor. (Current--amperage--is a different factor, and can have an effect as well.)

What you have is a household-voltage, low amperage motor. You won't trip a lot of breakers with it, but you won't be using its full potential.

Not ideal.

The exception would be if it has internal voltage regulators to take 115V down to 12V--and then I'd say to remove those for this use, as 12V is your max.

I'd go with the wheelchair motors instead--those are much more likely to be 12V or something in that range.

The fan motor would depend on what type of fan and the ratings on the voltage and amperage were.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 00:19
Weird Al/ Tony Weird Al/ Tony is offline
Weird Al the Creator
AKA: Anthony. or Tony, not Toni i'm a guy!
FRC #1322 (G.R.A.Y.T. Leviathons)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Fenton, Michigan
Posts: 14
Weird Al/ Tony is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Weird Al/ Tony
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

alright thanks. ya see I'm trying to get a powerful motor that will be hard to stop while it is receiving power. that way it will be able to power my robot through all opposition. (this robot is for like a hobby, not the competitions) and I'm thinking that I have some older wheelchair motors, and other stuff. but they arent very fast and they dont have much power. I'd probably need either a gear box or some good belts to allow diffrent speed and torgue. I kinda think I know what i'm talking about. I mean I'm just getting on a team so I dont have alot of robotics experience.
__________________
I am Weird Al and I'm here to play! Check out the team:www.team1322.org !
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 00:22
kevin.li.rit's Avatar
kevin.li.rit kevin.li.rit is offline
Imaginary Friend
AKA: Kevin Li
FRC #0596 (SciClones)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Hopkinton, Massachusetts
Posts: 936
kevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond reputekevin.li.rit has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to kevin.li.rit
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weid Al/ Toni View Post
alright thanks. ya see I'm trying to get a powerful motor that will be hard to stop while it is receiving power. that way it will be able to power my robot through all opposition. (this robot is for like a hobby, not the competitions) and I'm thinking that I have some older wheelchair motors, and other stuff. but they arent very fast and they dont have much power. I'd probably need either a gear box or some good belts to allow diffrent speed and torgue. I kinda think I know what i'm talking about. I mean I'm just getting on a team so I dont have alot of robotics experience.
Go FIRST Retro and use some 12 Volt Drill Motors. They'll come with gearboxes with high low speeds too! Judging by your team number your team might still have some.
__________________
Kevin Li

596 - Sciclones
1405 - Finney Falcons
2262 - Holliston Panthers
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 00:32
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,823
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

I think that you may want to talk to your local physics teacher. At the least, he can help you through some of the concepts and the math behind them.

I'll give a brief rundown of some of them.

Voltage: difference in electrical potential energy between two points.
Amperage or current: how fast that electrical energy can move.

Power (or energy): force*distance.
Work: power/time.
Torque: force * distance, usually referenced with regard to rotational motion. You'll want to know this eventually.

Gearboxes multiply and divide torque and rotational speed, which translates via wheels to linear power and linear speed.

BTW, you may want to look up some of John V-Neun's whitepapers. I think that those will help you with some of the math that is behind the design of a drivetrain, and quite possibly help you optimize the drive for the motors you have.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 00:41
hipsterjr's Avatar
hipsterjr hipsterjr is offline
Your bot can score but can it dance
AKA: CJ
FRC #4451 (The Burning Magnetos)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: summerville,SC
Posts: 587
hipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond reputehipsterjr has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to hipsterjr
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Please do not take this the wrong way, but coming from someone who has built homemade/ non-first robots, I can see that you may want to do a lot more studying on basic AC and DC electrical circuits and the wide variety of electrical motors before you get too deep into this project. At your level of experience, I would stay away from AC motors all together and stick with dc. AC is possible, but take a lot of know how to work on a battery powered robot. I took a digital circuits and industrial controls class that really helped me understand some of the questions mentioned here. I don't want to discourage you at all, just know what you are getting into before you spend too much time or money on something that won't work.
My $0.02
__________________
2010 Palmetto Chairmens Winner
2009 Peachtree Finalist Thanks 1319 & 590 "Sure your robot can score, but can it dance?!"
2008 Palmetto Regional Finalist Thanks 343 & 804
2008 Florida Regional Finalist Thanks 179 & 69
2007 Palmetto Regional winners Thanks 1319 & 832
2005 Palmetto Chairmens Winner

Last edited by hipsterjr : 03-04-2010 at 01:19.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 00:54
Weird Al/ Tony Weird Al/ Tony is offline
Weird Al the Creator
AKA: Anthony. or Tony, not Toni i'm a guy!
FRC #1322 (G.R.A.Y.T. Leviathons)
Team Role: Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Fenton, Michigan
Posts: 14
Weird Al/ Tony is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to Weird Al/ Tony
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

alright thanks guys. and I probably will stick to the DC stuff because I dont really have the money to work with converters and inverters and such. I'm probably going to be on here alot. and I'm also getting other info from other sites. I'm learning terms and what does what. i'm also studying basic electric diagrams. then there are the people who may be helping me from school so, i hope it will come together. and I'm pretty good with physics (without the classes), electrical is my main shortcoming. but yeah thanks. I will charish this time that i have spent on here forever! lol
__________________
I am Weird Al and I'm here to play! Check out the team:www.team1322.org !
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 01:18
Ether's Avatar
Ether Ether is offline
systems engineer (retired)
no team
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 1969
Location: US
Posts: 8,125
Ether has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Power (or energy): force*distance.
power and energy are not the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Work: power/time.
you have that backwards.

power = work/time

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Gearboxes multiply and divide torque and rotational speed, which translates via wheels to linear power and linear speed.
torque translates to linear force, not linear power.


~
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2010, 01:40
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,823
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Will a 1/3 horse power sump pump motor burn up at half power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether View Post
power and energy are not the same thing.
They aren't, but for some reason known to nobody, they share the same units. Joules in the SI, BTU and its equivalents in the Eng. system. (Eng. == either English or Engineering, which for functional purposes are indistinguishable.) This makes the calculations very similar when all's said and done.

150 kJ << without my telling you, is this power or energy?

150 kN-m << That's power, but to get that I had to expand the unit. Also note that that is a torque unit as well.

Energy has a number of ways to get to the kJ unit, none of them simple. Something about energy/mass * mass in a number of weird combinations makes it a little hard to translate out of handwriting.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Power distribution board does not give power to access point bitsoglass NI LabVIEW 3 17-02-2009 12:07
Backup battery will not power RC steven114 Control System 13 24-01-2005 01:59
Can you stop a pneumatic pump at half shaft mjt902 Pneumatics 16 06-02-2003 11:58
J&J Midatlantic - will power be in stands? Ben Mitchell Regional Competitions 2 13-01-2003 16:07
Power Wheels parts needed: Will trade, sell soul, etc. archiver 1999 13 23-06-2002 22:27


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:59.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi