How do you scout Defense?

[fuzzy1718]

My team has used a scouting system at both our districts and MSC that is basically centered around offensive attributes; it has worked fairly well. We have used all quantitative data, which is the way we would like to keep it, but we are having trouble with generating a good 2nd pick. We would like to add quantitative defensive catagories to the system, but are unsure what catagories we could use and have the numbers not be based off each scouters perception. Any ideas?

[Mike Schreiber]

The problem is that it depends on the team they are defending. Defending HoT is totally different than defending 397.

Defended this team #### to only scoring this many balls ## then compare that to the average number that that team scores? If it is significantly less then you know they are a good defender. If there was a robot problem on the offensive team it should be noted so that their already lower score for the match is considered.

[ttldomination]

When looking at defensive scouting, there are defensive oriented robots, and then there are robots that would be good at defense.

Like for example, there is the general mean bot that just sits in the home zone and pushes around robots. Then there's the robot with a mediocre offense, but a drive train that can easily push around anyone.

Two key examples. In the MSC finals, 217 played defense while 67 and the 3rd bot (sorry I can't remember their team number) played offense (to some degree). In Palmetto finals, we choose team 1398 to primarily aid in defense and home zone clean up. Both robots had VERY strong drive trains and BOTH robots played exceptional matches.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

When looking at defensive scouting, there are defensive oriented robots, and then there are robots that would be good at defense.

Like for example, there is the general mean bot that just sits in the home zone and pushes around robots. Then there's the robot with a mediocre offense, but a drive train that can easily push around anyone.

Two key examples. In the MSC finals, 217 played defense while 67 and the 3rd bot (sorry I can't remember their team number) played offense (to some degree). In Palmetto finals, we choose team 1398 to primarily aid in defense and home zone clean up. Both robots had VERY strong drive trains and BOTH robots played exceptional matches.

Wait? There was another robot besides Hot and the Chickens?

[Jeffy]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Wait? There was another robot besides Hot and the Chickens?

I realize you might not be intending something as extremly rude as you have stated, but this kind of thing bugs me. If you have ever been there (as the 3rd pick or as the alliance captain), then you would know that the 3rd pick is the make or break of an entire alliance. This is a TEAM game. The most complete TEAM will win more matches.

[kjolana1124]

For this game, we look for two main kinds of defense:

Classic: You know, just making sure robots don't let other robots move/do much. We watch for how they either pin/get between the robot and the goal. We don't have an exact method for this, but we normally end up comparing the score of the defended team v. how good a scorer the other robot is. If it's normally a good scorer but didn't get a good score overall, they it was defended well on. 839 and 173 did this very well at CTR.

The other way is kind of an indirect defense. It was the kid we wanted in other robots. We were looking for robots that would basically just get balls away from the other robots. They didn't really need to keep the other robot away, just make sure the balls were sent to the scoring zone. This required strong and smart midfield play. For this, we basically timed how quickly they could take balls from either tower back to the scoring zone, as well as how many they let pass. Also, if they played the far zone, how smartly they chose which balls to send over, and again how fast.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Jeffy

I realize you might not be intending something as extremly rude as you have stated, but this kind of thing bugs me. If you have ever been there (as the 3rd pick or as the alliance captain), then you would know that the 3rd pick is the make or break of an entire alliance. This is a TEAM game. The most complete TEAM will win more matches.

See? Kids never can spot sarcasm til puberty kicks in. Yet another reason to advocate the installation of a Sarcasm Button here.
The team he is talking about that no one else is, is his own so he's being ironic as well.
Unless you are one of the elite teams the fanbase is so in love with around these pages you're most likely going to be forgotten outside of your own area. I wouldn't make too big a deal of it.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Jeffy

I realize you might not be intending something as extremly rude as you have stated, but this kind of thing bugs me. If you have ever been there (as the 3rd pick or as the alliance captain), then you would know that the 3rd pick is the make or break of an entire alliance. This is a TEAM game. The most complete TEAM will win more matches.

I realize you might not be intending something extremely obtuse as you have stated. As a matter of fact, I was there.

[XaulZan11]

Scouting for defense is tough as there really is no good quantifiable measure. As stated above, you could compare the offensive team's average goals with how many they scored under defense, but with a small sample size, I don't think that is a good measure. There are also too many factors invovled (did the offensive team play offense the entire time, did the offensive team have enough balls to score, did the defender play defense the entire time, did the defender play defense on more than one team).

As a team that has picked two defensive robots as 3rd picks this year, we have focused on driving ability and drivetrain. For driving ability it bascially comes down to how well they do what they are trying to do. Hopefully, the team plays defense in the qualification matches so you can get a chance to see how they do it. If not, then you have to look at other measures of how well they drive. At midwest (which was a very shallow regional), we actually looked at how many goals teams scored, under the belief that you have to be decent at driving to push balls into the goal. Any team that had any questions/negative statements about their driving on our scouting sheets, were just about eliminated from getting picked.

For drivetrain, it is a lot more cut and dry. I almost always favor power over speed and manuverability. Obviously, you cannot be a snail out there, but if the offensive robot can push you out of the way, you cannot be that effective. My basic criteria is "Can a team catch and stay with an offensive robot. And once they are there, can they do damage?" Most of the time the teams that have traction wheels are best.

[BJC]

This year the best kind of defense is to have a robot that can kick all the balls out of the far zone. That is much better than a robot that only gets in the way of the opposition for two reasons.

1. Your opponent can't push balls in that just got kicked down field.
2. You can't score something that is down in the far zone.

So 1718s offensive rankings are pretty useful. You just have to put kicking balls fast out of the zone as more of a priority then aiming and scoring.

(also great job 1718 you guys were fantastic partners, we almost had 67, 217, 2612 in the semis!)

[ExTexan]

I'll remember 2612 Jack, at least until I get to Atlanta and a new set of finals! You were in my corner most of the time scoring goals.

But as to the question, if you watch 217 play defense, and not just against 469, then you have the characteristics, as has been stated. They are extremely tough, low CG, quick back and forth, and top it off by being able to grab a ball and fire it out of the zone. And of course good driving and coaching (which without, the bot would be far less effective).

Of course a team and bot like this will likely never be second pick but I think it proved to be a wise choice to have a strong offensive team playing defense in the several occasions they did.

[Chris is me]

As helpful as qualitative data is, you will not make good defensive picks using anything but your smartest minds watching the field and figuring out what people are doing.

If you're looking for "who pushes the best" or "how long a pin they have" or whatnot, you're not looking for people who play smart defense. Sometimes the smartest defensive move is not to move, something many drivers don't seem to fathom. Blocking a goal or herding a ball is often better than trying to push or pin. (See QF1 and QF2 at WPI for a direct comparison of these methods )

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

.
If you're looking for "who pushes the best" or "how long a pin they have" or whatnot, you're not looking for people who play smart defense. Sometimes the smartest defensive move is not to move, something many drivers don't seem to fathom.

This implies that pushing defense around is not smart defense. After watching 171 in Wisconsin and 2041 in Minnesota, pushing defense is certianly effective. Obviously, this is not the only way to play defense, but it is the way that requires certian traits of the robots. Anyone can sit infront of the goal or herd a ball, but not everyone can push and pin. The alliance partners can tell a robot with 8 traction wheels to sit in front of the goal and not move, but cannot tell a robot with a mechanum drive to push other robots around.

I think this just underscores the point that you cannot pick teams just based off one thing. You don't just pick a team based on the fact they have scored the most goals nor do you pick a team just because they can push anyone. There are many many factors that need to be weighed.

[Nuttle89]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

As helpful as qualitative data is, you will not make good defensive picks using anything but your smartest minds watching the field and figuring out what people are doing.

If you're looking for "who pushes the best" or "how long a pin they have" or whatnot, you're not looking for people who play smart defense. Sometimes the smartest defensive move is not to move, something many drivers don't seem to fathom. Blocking a goal or herding a ball is often better than trying to push or pin. (See QF1 and QF2 at WPI for a direct comparison of these methods )

I would like to second this; in particular, I cite a qualification match my team was in at DC. We are a defensively designmed machine, and as such we typically played in the third zone. With DC as a week one regional, we experienced the infamous losses of connection and thus frequently lost all control of our machine at random during a match. During the particular match I'm thinking of, we lost comm about 20 seconds into the match, but had managed to wedge the balls against the wall and park right in front of the goal, allowing us to sit there providing airtight defence. I specifically remember this match as being hilarious afterwards, as our teammate complimented our driving, despite the fact that we were unable to move for the majority of the match.

[Lil' Lavery]

A sharp eye, a strong idea of what you're looking for, and a little bit of luck. Most importantly, reasonable expectations of what they should be doing within your strategy.

No offense to any teams, but most "defensive" teams are a dime a dozen. There will be a couple of standouts in terms of defense, but they'll be easy to pick out. The next group of teams will be almost identical in terms of what they're going to be able to give you on the field, and I highly suggest that you pick based on reliability and robustness (which is pretty hard to scout effectively).

The damning factor in picking many teams is identifying how they play against the higher caliber of competition in the elimination rounds. I've seen many picks, including some of my own, end up being the downfall of an alliance because they can't hang in against better opponents. They may have chewed up the weaker foes in the qualification rounds, but they simply can't keep up with the faster, more agile, more reliable, and/or better driven teams in the eliminations. If you notice that a team on your pick list struggled (in whatever given role) against an elite team in a match or two, it should send up a warning flag.