Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

[BJC]

Originally Posted by hektormagee

I disagree. You have to remember that in Atlanta, the michigan team will be peppered into 4 different divisions without the chance of cross picking. While there is more total talent in atlanta, there is going to be nowhere near the condensed talent you will find at Michigan State Championships. I mean, where else would a bot like Foley Freeze be picked by the #4 alliance?? Or the Monsters and Bionic Barons being picked as a 3rd round pick by the #1and 2 alliances?? Absolutely nowhere. I believe that Dave was right and that that Michigan State Championship was the hardest competition in the history of FIRST.

Perhaps, after/if other states start using the michigan system, we could have a Championship Midwest Regional or something of that sort, that way the best teams from several states could compete against each other! Someday!

Kind of like Atlanta but just one giant regional!

[Rabbot]

Originally Posted by Norman J

Rabbot: I would have to politely disagree about putting a strong defensive bot in the home zone. That robot needs to be able to clear the balls out of the home zone up to the midfield, otherwise the robot on the other team playing offense will just score the ones you block while you're still defending 469. That robot needs to be agile enough to block the balls as 217 did while also kicking as many as possible out of the zone, and hopefully permanently out of the loop.

I agree with you BUT, I would think that the best strategy would be to defend 469 in the midfield to prevent them from entering their tower loop as well as fielding any balls. As long as 469 is busy with the defending bot, they will be like any other robot on the field. If 469 does happen to enter the towel loop, then you will need to cross the bump and implement the 217 strategy.
My main point was that you can't sacrifice a prolific scorer as 217 to defend 469. In the elimination rounds, it will be doubtful that an alliance will have 3 prolific scorers. So during the selections the role of a strong defensive bot increases.
Running and gunning with teams will cause some pretty exciting matches. But ultimately, defense wins championships. A great team will consist of robots that will play doing what they do best, and IMHO that's two prolific scorers and a robust defense bot.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by BJC

Perhaps, after/if other states start using the michigan system, we could have a Championship Midwest Regional or something of that sort, that way the best teams from several states could compete against each other! Someday!

Kind of like Atlanta but just one giant regional!

I believe the idea is that once every state has a State Championship, teams will qualify to a Regional Competition, from which they will have to qualify for Nationals. Obviously that is both far-fetched and, in any case, not happening any time soon, but I think that's what the FRC is trying to get to.

[ComputerWhizIA]

Originally Posted by JABot67

Then again, look at Galileo last year. 971, the undefeated champions of Silicon Valley and an extremely effective scorer, were the LAST pick of alliance selection. Team 20 WASN'T PICKED. I agree that Michigan has a ton of powerhouse teams. I would venture to say it has more powerhouses than any other state; this is why Michigan usually sends a lot of teams to Einstein. (4 2009, 5 in 2005, etc.) But the top 24 teams at MSC are not as good as the top 24 in a moderately strong division in Atlanta, especially considering that the latter has 20 more teams.

I would like to disagree with your statement. After four years of scouting at Atlanta and two years at Michigan States, I would say that MSC is deeper than any division* in Atlanta. For example, where else would a 2-time district finalist (2619), a district champion (2337) and a powerful scorer that scared every alliance at Troy and Cass Tech (226) would combine to form the 8th alliance. Also, where else would robots that scored around 6-10 balls a match would be the 15th and 16th pick (2612 and 2834).

Also, 971, unfortunately, must have had a bad set of qualifications matches since they were 2-5 during qualifications, so they would not have been noticed by most scouting teams (props to the scouting teams of 111 and 67 for finding a diamond in the rough).

*The only time where I saw a division that rivals the depth of MSC was Galileo '08, where there were easily 10-15 powerhouse teams.

[JABot67]

Originally Posted by ComputerWhizIA

I would like to disagree with your statement. After four years of scouting at Atlanta and two years at Michigan States, I would say that MSC is deeper than any division* in Atlanta. For example, where else would a 2-time district finalist (2619), a district champion (2337) and a powerful scorer that scared every alliance at Troy and Cass Tech (226) would combine to form the 8th alliance. Also, where else would robots that scored around 6-10 balls a match would be the 15th and 16th pick (2612 and 2834).

Also, 971, unfortunately, must have had a bad set of qualifications matches since they were 2-5 during qualifications, so they would not have been noticed by most scouting teams (props to the scouting teams of 111 and 67 for finding a diamond in the rough).

*The only time where I saw a division that rivals the depth of MSC was Galileo '08, where there were easily 10-15 powerhouse teams.

I guess my post was mostly based on last year. For example, team 503 was 12th pick at MSC last year but 16th pick on Newton. The Bees moved down a couple of spots too, even with their (awesome) improved spitter. 247 was the second pick at MSC but the 10th pick on Curie. We saw some teams go up (469, 85) but mostly the trend was downward.

But maybe this year I am completely wrong. Michigan teams are that much better this year, with 33, 27, 2337, and many others rising up from off years to create powerful machines.

[BJC]

Originally Posted by JABot67

I guess my post was mostly based on last year. For example, team 503 was 12th pick at MSC last year but 16th pick on Newton. The Bees moved down a couple of spots too, even with their (awesome) improved spitter. 247 was the second pick at MSC but the 10th pick on Curie. We saw some teams go up (469, 85) but mostly the trend was downward.

But maybe this year I am completely wrong. Michigan teams are that much better this year, with 33, 27, 2337, and many others rising up from off years to create powerful machines.

Ya, last year we were "Inspired by Hot" to say the least, lol . But quite honestly the more I look and think about it, even the michigan districts were stacked. For example, even though 33 is good this year we haven't won a compitition because of the crazy level of compitition we have faced all season. At Kettering we faced 67 and 910, in Troy we faced 217 and 469, and in States we faced 67 and 217. I think this just goes to further show just how competitive/crazy Michigan really is.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Joe,
It seems that a by product of the Michigan District system is an overall higher level of teams coming out of the State.

Correlation is not causeality. Please investigate years prior to the district system and look at how many Michigan teams performed above average in the championships before suggesting that the /newly/ formed district structure is a cause of Michigan being so competitive.

[Basel A]

With only one year to judge upon, I think it's impossible to be able to ascertain if the district system is making a difference, nor to expect it to make a large difference in its first year. It'll take a little time before most teams in Michigan are unaffected by how things are done out-of-state.

[GGCO]

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

217 can move omni-directionally, meaning they could have moved across with their kicker facing the tower. So, they could have kicked the balls away as soon as they blocked it. Maybe the felt their robot would have been too skinny to block all the shots, though.

I'm not sure 469 is the most hated team in FRC...I know I gained even more respect and appreciation of them this year.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by GGCO

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

If you hate them that much, would you have declined them if their alliance had picked you with their last pick?

469 is a model FIRST team who has reached a level that we should all be striving for. I do find myself kicking myself for not pushing for a design like theirs. Once I get past that initial embarrassment, I am simply in awe of what they have done this year. I will be rooting for them heavily at championship, except if/when I have to face them. The level of greatness that they have achieved is nothing short of inspiring, and I am in awe of that. It is what Team 1114 strives for every year.

[WJF2011]

In my opinion this is how first should be run in 15 years or so:
Each team is placed in a state division based on sponsoring, experience, past wins, and such. The divisions would be like varsity sports today with A-AAAAA.
The state would sponsor the state competition between each team in different divisions. Also the state would by the KOP for each team that wanted to have FIRST as a varsity sport, each additional part would have to be independently funded. The winners and runners up would all qualify for regionals. The regionals would be run directly by first and would have divisions A-AAAAA. The winners and runners up of each division would qualify for nationals. The national winners for only 5A would go to a world championship against the national winners for like Japan and stuff. IT WOULD BE INSANE.

[Ben Martin]

Originally Posted by GGCO

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

At least for me, when I was watching the Michigan State Championship, I was extremely impressed with 469's robot. To me, if you build a robot that can execute a dominant or chokehold strategy for the game that is more effective than nearly all other robots (ex. 71 in 2001, 71 in 2002, 1114 in 2008), you have earned your victory. I was rooting for them all throughout the Michigan State Championship.

[fuzzy1718]

As soon as you put teams in divisions based on performance and many other aspects, you lose the sole purpose of FIRST, insperation. Every team will then play the no holds bar, win at all cost, game. The lesser teams will not have an example to aspire to because they will have no direct contact with the AAAAA teams. Using the division system like this would be a terrible idea. This is in no way what ths thread is about though, so I digress.
On the topic at hand, if I were hot I think I would have declined. What would be better for them: another state trophy or knowing that they can topple, arguably, the most likly canidate for a championship win? Easy choice.

[Jack Jones]

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

Take heart. After all, you're still rookies. Maybe someday you will grow up to be hated too. {-- smiley just for you Ed}