Caution: Keep your hands out of the ball counters!

[Billfred]

During one of our qualification matches at Palmetto, a human player stuck their hand inside the ball counter to unjam a couple of balls stuck in the goal. The field reacted to this wrong-way motion by deducting two points from our score.

We lost the match 2-1; had we won 3-2, it alone would've nudged us up from third seed to second. Naturally, since this was automatically done by the field, there was nothing to review with the head referee.

(To be crystal clear, nobody on Los Pollos Locos has any beef with the head referee or any other member of the crew at Palmetto over this event. I only share the background to better explain the issue and its significance.)

This is my opportunity to warn all human players yet to run of the procedure laid out in the blue box following G15:

In the event that BALLS become dammed in the GOAL at the mouth of the BALL COUNTER, a HUMAN PLAYER may use the handle end of the TRIDENT to dislodge the BALLS by placing it through the hole in the clear Lexan cover on top of the GOAL. Only balls dislodged before the automatic counter stops counting will be SCORED. Note that the TRIDENT or anything else may not be placed through this access hole at any other time or the TEAM will be charged with a violation of <S02>. Similarly, when dislodging BALLS, if the TRIDENT comes in contact with a ROBOT, <S02> will be invoked.

Learn from our mistakes!

[JoshD]

Yeah this happened quite a few times at the Virginia Regional, they even made a few announcements because of it. If I remember correctly it even affected some match outcomes. This is definitely something to watch out for during the matches.

[Bob Steele]

In our 2nd quarterfinal in Seattle we scored 5 balls to our opponents score of 4 but the ball counter only showed 3 for our team... (after we had won the first match...)

When our team was watching the score board it was interesting that the score went from a score of 3 on the board BACK to a score of 2 and then back to three instead of 3-4-5...
After much discussion on the field it was decided to replay the match...an ARENA FAULT....
(the right thing to do...we would not have felt right to have the decision reversed.....)

Fortunately for the other alliance they were able to beat us the next two matches to advance to the semifinal. they played GREAT!!

It was really exciting and a well fought quarter final...

After that replay the referees had someone at each goal keeping track with pencil and paper.... to augment the real time scoring... I don't think it ever happened again...

Thank you referees for making a good decision to replay the match...

[Radical Pi]

Yeah all the human players got a stern talking to by the FTA in philly after this happened a few times on friday. Remember: the DOGMA timer doesn't start until you can pick up the ball legally. Putting your hands in there won't save you a few seconds there

Additionally: please be careful of DOGMA. That little amber light above the #2 DS caused me to facepalm quite a few times while watching the games

[legendaryghost]

Supposedly you should be able to use one end of the trident and slide it into the hole in the plexi-glass and unjam it that way to prevent losing the points from putting your hand into the counter

[MarcD79]

Here is a little clarification on the Ball counter issue. As is said in the above post, you can use the back end of the trident to unclog the balls. BUT, the official way to do it is to slide it in between the top Lexan cover & the backing of the goal. Under no circumstances should you try to poke from the counter side. This will deduct points. As was said before. Until the ball rolls through the counter, the Dogma error timer will not start. You have 11 seconds to return the ball through the return counter for the 1st ball, then 4 seconds thereafter if multiple balls are counted. There is an algorithm to determine the points penalties assigned if more than one ball & how long it takes to return ball(s).

That said, the human player does have to pay attention to both goals , as well as the human player who retrieves those balls from the goals. I witnessed many HP's & trident attendant not paying attention to returning the balls, resulting in large penalties, even after the counter buzzes zero! YOU must return the counted balls through the return counter, even after the match has ended!

Oh by the way, I was FTAA in Connecticut & saw this first-hand. Please read the rules.

[Leav]

Actually, it is my understanding that balls that are scored with less than 15 secs on the clock do not need to be returned.

i'll try and back this up with the rule.

Edit:
almost! <G17> states that you have to return the ball by the time T is reached:
T=Tscore-11-4*n
(where n is the number of balls already scored, but not yet returned).

if a single ball is scored at Tscore=10 then it does not need to be returned. (that is my understanding of the meaning of T=-1)

[Radical Pi]

Originally Posted by MarcD79

even after the counter buzzes zero! YOU must return the counted balls through the return counter, even after the match has ended!

DOGMA continues in the 10 seconds after the match? I wish they would tell us this stuff

[FIRSTgirl675]

We had something similar happen to us (675) at SVR. We were in the first match of the finals, and the other alliance was using the end of the trident to dislodge the balls, and the counter kept thinking that the trident was a ball, causing the other alliance to have more points than they were supposed too. At the same time, there was a non-related and random counting malfunction on our side of the field. I believe we were supposed to have won that match, but because of these errors we had to re-do the match.

[Lil' Lavery]

They specifically had a human players meeting on Saturday morning in Philadelphia to cover this issue and make sure all teams knew not to reach into the counter and how to properly unjam balls. This should be made standard at Championship.

Just another reason Pete is the best FTA there is.

[Eugene Fang]

Originally Posted by Radical Pi

DOGMA continues in the 10 seconds after the match? I wish they would tell us this stuff

Well I specifically asked the FTA at SVR if we had to return balls after the buzzer, and he said no... But we've never had any issues not returning balls so i don't know.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Radical Pi

DOGMA continues in the 10 seconds after the match? I wish they would tell us this stuff

They didn't tell you because it isn't true. Just another reminder to take what you read on CD with a grain of salt unless it directly refers to the manual or Q&A.


Q&A indicating DOGMA does not keep running after the game ends:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14354

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by legendaryghost

Supposedly you should be able to use one end of the trident and slide it into the hole in the plexi-glass and unjam it that way to prevent losing the points from putting your hand into the counter

That is exactly what we were instructed to do from then on. The human player for our alliance partner just got overexcited and didn't know this rule.