Frustrations with Minor Technicalities

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by RMiller

Remove bumpers.

100% agree...although it'll never happen. In total there are about 38292 rules in the robot section and half of those are on bumpers.

And just a guess: I'd say there's a 90% chance they are going to make us have two separate sets of bumpers next year because the slip covers looked terrible.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

100% agree...although it'll never happen. In total there are about 38292 rules in the robot section and half of those are on bumpers.

And just a guess: I'd say there's a 90% chance they are going to make us have two separate sets of bumpers next year because the slip covers looked terrible.

Slip covers did indeed look terrible. Maybe instead of two bumpers, 1323 used one bumper with flips. The idea was originally suggested on CD and we went with the idea. It allowed easy to changed bumpers.

-RC

[rsisk]

The only way to make this better is to improve the front end or the back end


Front end: Apply occam's razor to the rules. They seem to be getting more complicated every year, maybe certain areas can be simplified. Maybe the bumper rules need the first review to see if they can be simplified. Perhaps a panel of interested parties can be created to review and simplify rules.

Back end: try to catch as many problems as possible before the competitions. Maybe official inspections at pre-ship events. Teams get a token of some sort that shows they have been inspected pre-ship and this is given to inspectors at competition so they can go through a simplified inspection. Certified robots; once a robot is certified by an inspector it remains certified and only receives cursory or random checks. Teams that repeatedly fail random checks would lose ability to be certified. Peer reviews; teams step up to help do some of the basic inspection duties leaving the more complex processes to the Inspectors. Release the inspectors checklist to the teams so they can self inspect either pre-ship or at the competition.

So why are rules growing so complex? Is it because the size of FIRST is growing? Are the games/robots becoming more complex? Is it a natural progression? IDK, I haven't been around long enough to see the less complex rules, so I really don't have a way to tell. I suspect it is a bit of all three.

[TubaMorg]

So why are rules growing so complex? Is it because the size of FIRST is growing? Are the games/robots becoming more complex? Is it a natural progression? IDK, I haven't been around long enough to see the less complex rules, so I really don't have a way to tell. I suspect it is a bit of all three.

The reason the rules keep getting progressively more complicated should be fairly evident by the amount of lawyering that is evidenced here and in the Q and A. I believe that GDC would be thrilled beyond belief if people would just try and meet the spirit of rules as written rather than try to exploit every loophole and imprecisely worded phrase that they can find. Well that doesn't happen so now the GDC has to try and craft bulletproof rulebooks. Unfortunately the GDC doesn't yet have a lawyer on the team, so the rules aren't yet up to Supreme Court standards. Maybe next year.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by rsisk

So why are rules growing so complex? Is it because the size of FIRST is growing? Are the games/robots becoming more complex? Is it a natural progression? IDK, I haven't been around long enough to see the less complex rules, so I really don't have a way to tell. I suspect it is a bit of all three.

A few years ago, FIRST realized that the rules had grown very complex and simplified the rules significantly. I think it was prior to the 2004 season. Things like the allowable materials that used to be very complex were simplified and teams were given more freedom.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Andrew,
I don't know how to make this easier for you. I know it won't help to tell you that your team is not the only one that has missed some of these things. I have seen teams this year with bumpers at last year's height. I have seen Globe motors, van door motors, mechanisms outside of the bumper zone, active ball returns and metal on the carpet. I tried to list everything I knew that would get teams in trouble and issues that I and others were seeing from week one during inspections. (See Al's Annual Inspection List) I know I will see more of these issues in Atlanta.
For inspectors it matters not if the infraction is game related or a competitive advantage. Rules is rules and that's what we check for. For me inspections level the playing field (relative term), keep you from damaging the field, your team, or other teams, and prevents your robot from self immolation. Inspections are what we need for everyone to have a quality experience, every weekend, every event. I will not deny that some rules cause us headaches in inspections (frame perimeter cough cough) but we inspect them just the same and suggest to teams how they can easily fix them when they occur.
How do teams prevent these issues? They assign a student to check the rules and self inspect the robot before ship. They make it a requirement that every student on the mechanical and electrical sub teams read the rules, know them and are tested on them throughout the season. They regularly check the Team Updates and the Q&A every few days. I can tell you that we have made design changes and strategy changes based on answers in the Q&A and have asked our fair number of Q&A questions. If you want to be competitive, that is what is required. Sometimes we take some heat from other teams for this but we are following the rules that are available to all and what our research has shown us. Then we attend events and watch the forums and webcasts to see what is going on in other regions to see if will be necessary to make changes to strategy or design. Then we check each other constantly. We never stop talking, checking, designing, strategizing or questioning ourselves or our robot until August. We don't beat ourselves up for mistakes, we learn from them and move on.

[JohnBoucher]

The inspectors get the least respect at all events. What if they gave an inspectors award? What if the inspectors recognized at each regional and champs with either a shout-out, award, or a web-badge for robots that pass with little or no trouble?

It may give teams incentive not to wire the entire robot in 16 gauge green wire. (NU 2010)

[Jon236]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

The inspectors get the least respect at all events. What if they gave an inspectors award? What if the inspectors recognized at each regional and champs with either a shout-out, award, or a web-badge for robots that pass with little or no trouble?

It may give teams incentive not to wire the entire robot in 16 gauge green wire. (NU 2010)

Great ideas John....the Safety guys get to give an award, why not have an Inspectors Award?

Of course, we also need to give an award to the team that was able to lose the most weight!

[JohnBoucher]

Originally Posted by Jon236

Great ideas John....the Safety guys get to give an award, why not have an Inspectors Award?

Of course, we also need to give an award to the team that was able to lose the most weight!

The Biggest Loser Award? NU 2010 winner to 236. They gained 18 lbs from ship to uncrate. You guys took the jaws of life to it to get underweight.

[engunneer]

A random thought I had to make the rules more clear - keep the numbering consistent on common rules from year to year.

This might require a little creativity on the rule number scheme, but some rules might be easier to remember if they are in the same place all the time.

Unfortunately, this would probably add confusion when a rule is deleted for a particular year.

The main reason I thought of this is because I was thinking about how teams keep the same number each year. When I started, there were no numbers. When we were put into the pits at Epcot, we were arranged alphabetically. Then they started alphabetizing the team list and assigning a number. My team was a B, so we got 17 for the first numbered year, and 23 for the second. Then they decided to not change the numbers for teams that already had them. It greatly reduced confusion.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by TubaMorg

I believe that GDC would be thrilled beyond belief if people would just try and meet the spirit of rules as written rather than try to exploit every loophole and imprecisely worded phrase that they can find. Well that doesn't happen so now the GDC has to try and craft bulletproof rulebooks.

According to physics, the standard bullet stopping ability of a rule book is the number of pages.

[Ed Sparks]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

A hard lesson learned a long time ago is to build 1" under-size to prevent problems like this. Do you ever really need 100% of the allowed dimensions?

Ya know, I've been around a long time and this general issue of fitting into a sizing box just keeps comming back and giving us inspector types heartburn. I suggest that starting next year, after ship date, the GDC issue an update that increases the max sizes by 1" in all directions.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Ed Sparks

Ya know, I've been around a long time and this general issue of fitting into a sizing box just keeps comming back and giving us inspector types heartburn. I suggest that starting next year, after ship date, the GDC issue an update that increases the max sizes by 1" in all directions.

Robots are made to this size so that with bumpers they fit through a door... an extra inch will not go through a standard door.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

Robots are made to this size so that with bumpers they fit through a door... an extra inch will not go through a standard door.

If this is true...how come these dimensions were the same pre-bumper requirements?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

So that if you find a standard door (30") you can go through it with no bumpers. Such doors were once standard for schools with a center post on double doors. Following some changes in building codes, i.e. ADA in larger cities, doors were modified to allow wheel chairs and other vehicles. Some older venues that do not fall under such codes are still around.