The Divisions...

[Joe Johnson]

Let me begin by saying that I love the format of the Championships. I like that they have 4 divisions that come together to play on Einstein (I was one of those who wholeheartedly supported the idea when someone -- Chris Hibner? -- first suggested it on ChiefDelphi.com oh so many years ago).

But... as the years go by, I wonder if there are improvements that could make things even better. One thing that I see as a weakness is that being the "Curie Division" champion, for example, doesn't really have a history associated with it.

Think of the NFL's black and blue division (Bears, Packers, Lions, Vikings... ...and the Bucs) you know what you're getting when you say you've won the NFC North Division. Basically this is because the teams in that division are of a certain kind with a history and a character that mean something to fans.

Here is my question for the ChiefDelphi.com members.

Would the divisions be better if teams were not pseudo randomly assigned to a division each spring but were place permanently in a division according to some plan? Or if not by assigned by some plan then perhaps the divisions could become home to various teams over time*?

In this way, you could get to know that teams X, Y, & Z were from this or that division. Over time the divisions would take on a character built brick by brick from the characters of the teams that had settled in that division.

There are down sides to such a scheme to be sure. I will leave it for others to share these with us all as well.

Please, share your thoughts. Pros and Cons.

Perhaps we can influence those in a position to decide one way or the other but it is not very likely. Even so, the discussion is worth having because we will have had a passionate discussion about the future of FIRST, a subject which we all care a lot about.

Joe J.


*for example you may be randomly assigned to a division your first year and bounce around divisions until you did something of note in a particular division (say you win an award of this or that status or you won the division or finished second in the division or were the number 1 seed, or perhaps even you just played in a classic match that is one for the ages) at which point are assigned to that division forever -- becoming part of the history and fabric of that division going forward.

[Greg Marra]

I have wondered what would happen if the divisions were made purely geographic. On one hand, this would eliminate your ability to meet new teams at the Championship; you'd just be playing alongside the same teams you did at your Regionals. On the other hand, you'd be playing to represent your region!

[WJF2011]

It is a novel and creative idea. I see what you mean and are intending here. However the problem is that one division will always end up being the "hardest" and the others easier. Making it unfair to be in that division.

[dodar]

You could do it by region: Southeast, Southwest, Northwest, Midwest, Northeast, Great Lakes, Mid-Atlantic, International

Then at Championships each year you randomly assign 2 regions to 1 field and then duke it off and then go to Einstein or whatever the final stage would be called lol

[WJF2011]

The way you're planning right now the international would be too small to compete.

[dodar]

International = any team not from the US, which is a VERY large amount of teams

[gorrilla]

I like seperating by region, there could be North, South, East, and West.

But on the other hand I feel that they need to be random to be equal.

[CalTran]

I like the North/East/Sout/West idea, but that leaves a lot of the mid-united states and international out. Like, I'm from Kansas...

[Chris is me]

I don't really like the idea. I mean, why even go to the Championship if I'm just going to play the same teams again?

[TheFish]

I think geography is definitely not the way FIRST should organize divisions; teams too often compete in Regionals close to home and it is much more exciting to be paired up with new teams at the Championships.

I think overall this is a great idea.

One of the biggest things to consider is Division-Pride. Under the current system, teams who don't make the Championships have no interest as to which Division wins Einstein, because they aren't tied to any specific one. If we had a system where each team, over time could get assigned a division then there would develop a much bigger sense of community and pride within that Division.

A big example are conferences within collegiate sports. Even though two schools might be big rivals, they still want their rivals to win so that their conference will get more credibility and they can take pride in something bigger than just their school.

My suggestion: during the first 4 times a team goes to the Championships, FIRST tries as hard as possible to make sure that they are put in all four divisions. After these four times you would be placed in the division where you performed your best (tie breakers being: winner/finals/semis, then to win-loss record, then seed).

Clearly there are risks to a system like this, of having one Division become stronger over time than the others... but as we all know, anything can happen in FIRST and teams get better/worse from year to year, so you never know how things are going to develop.

I'm curious to see what other ideas this thread comes up with.

-TheFish

[dodar]

the same reasons why you go to your home regional and play the same teams there every year

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by gorrilla

I like seperating by region, there could be North, South, East, and West.

But on the other hand I feel that they need to be random to be equal.

I have never been a big fan of the equality cult but in this case I think we have to try to give some nod to fairness and geography makes fairness difficult.

I also like the mixing bowl effect of teams from different regions of the country/world playing against each other at the Championships.

That is one of the reasons I like idea of "Random until you're a part of history" concept. I envision most teams being random but once you've made history then you stick to that division. This would put only a few teams each season into the frozen forever club. I think you could even have a ceremony at the opening of the games on each field where the newly frozen teams from the prior season's performance are "welcomed into the club" so to speak.

I think this could start to develop into rivalries that help to spread the fame and glory of the divisions. It would also give fans a natural alliance to cheer for on Einstein (at least those in the club but others as well -- there are always going to be division fanboys ;-)

Joe J.

[CalTran]

Well, another thing to think about is you won't be playing the same teams. Yes, a few of them are going to be the same, but there is no way you went to enough regionals to see every team in your Atlanta division.

[WJF2011]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

I have never been a big fan of the equality cult but in this case I think we have to try to give some nod to fairness and geography makes fairness difficult.

I also like the mixing bowl effect of teams from different regions of the country/world playing against each other at the Championships.

That is one of the reasons I like idea of "Random until you're a part of history" concept. I envision most teams being random but once you've made history then you stick to that division. This would put only a few teams each season into the frozen forever club. I think you could even have a ceremony at the opening of the games on each field where the newly frozen teams from the prior season's performance are "welcomed into the club" so to speak.

I think this could start to develop into rivalries that help to spread the fame and glory of the divisions. It would also give fans a natural alliance to cheer for on Einstein (at least those in the club but others as well -- there are always going to be division fanboys ;-)

Joe J.

Now that makes more sense, perhaps if you win one year the next 3 years you are frozen, and if you dont win in any of those you become unfrozen again? just an idea to keep it slightly fluid.

[The Lucas]

Quick thoughts:
-You would have to start with the Original Teams and HOF teams since they qualify every year) and assign them to divisions. It would be good to have a mix of regions in these teams per division. These teams could act as division captains.
-Division Winners become a one year captains for their division.
-CA winners obviously become HOF teams and stay with their division.
-EI winner becomes a one year captain
-Some way to appoint permanent captians

-Each division captain submits an online draft list of their top 100 (arbitrary) registered teams to join their division that year.
-Computer program randomises a division draft order then randomises the captain order in each and assigns the top pick on that list. Moves to next division in the order (serpentine) makes a pick from a division captain in the that division. Repeats till a 100 (again arbitrary) teams are selected.
-Rest of the teams are randomly assigned
-This would probably even out the strength of the divisions in a decentralised manner, without anyone knowing who selected who or in what order.

-Captains are responsible for the pageantry and social events of their division. Division Hug anyone?

Issues:
-This is alot of power/responsibility for the captains, may make others feel left out. However this the only way to guarantee those teams will be there.
-Division winners need to be qualified for next year. (Should be that way anyway IMHO)
-Need other ways to appoint permanent captains
-Numbers of Captains in each division could become out of balance, as well as their regional alignment.
-Miss out on chances to be in division with different teams (anticipate that opposing captains will interact in friendly rivalries so that is perhaps better than being with them)

Thoughts?