The Divisions...

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Collin Fultz

Dr. Joe - It's so funny you bring this up. Late last year I was surfing the Archives of CD (I lead such a glamorous life) and found your post (from around 1999?) highlighting your thoughts on how (at that time) Nationals needed to be restructured into it's current format. You even called the names of the divisions and naming the "big" field Einstein. I wish I could find that post again. It's incredible how many of your suggestions are now common rules and practices (I think in that thread you also advocated unlimited material usage).

It was discussed in this thread in 1999, but it was also briefly discussed at the end of 1998 in some "predictions for 1999" type of thread. Chiefdelphi.com was a real small, tight community back in those days.

EDIT: The topic was revisited in 2000 in this thread.

A lot of ideas from these boards wiggle their way into the FIRST landscape. For example, Dr. Joe had the great idea of weaving the awards into the Einstein matches a number of years back, and that has stuck around for a while. That's the great thing about having a bunch of smart people on one message board - a good idea can be turned into an excellent, highly-refined solution. I'm so happy that Joe is back in his old form throwing out some great ideas again. I missed those days.

Sticky divisions is an interesting idea. I like the idea of divisional pride, yet I also like the play amongst different teams every year. That makes for a bit of a conundrum. Hmmmmmm.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Collin Fultz

I do, however, fully support Mr. Baker's idea (linked earlier in the thread) about televising the "selection" show. If we'll all gather around for three hours to see exactly what the game is on a Saturday in January, I'd be willing to bet we'd watch a webcast as a team of them announcing the divisions.

That would be very very cool. What if, tonight, at 9:00pm, we all would gather to watch a webcast with Dean and Woodie describing each of the divisions. Better yet, we could have key people from around the country Skype-ing in with their assessment for each grouping. Looking Forward could chime in, wearing a ski mask. The amazing CarNack could even give his input. I would be willing to help make this work next year.

I think that 3 things would be needed to do this:
1. some broadcasting method (NASA, etc.) maybe multiple methods from various locations (dedicated website, etc.)
2. a committee to organize this
3. cooperation from FIRST (they give the committee the division teams, and then wait to publish after the selection show is done)
4. some minimal sponsorship

I would pony up some effort to help make this happen.

Andy

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

That would be very very cool. What if, tonight, at 9:00pm, we all would gather to watch a webcast with Dean and Woodie describing each of the divisions. Better yet, we could have key people from around the country Skype-ing in with their assessment for each grouping. Looking Forward could chime in, wearing a ski mask. The amazing CarNack could even give his input. I would be willing to help make this work next year. Andy

Maybe half-time of the NCAA Championship game!

Half of the division on the Mens night, the other half on Womens night.

[DarkFlame145]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Think of the NFL's black and blue division (Bears, Packers, Lions, Vikings... ...and the Bucs)

Errrrrrrrrrrrr I know the bucs where in the NFC North when they first started.

But I think the biggest problem with using a regional division system is that some teams dont go to the world competition every year. Or what about that team that only goes every few years? The number of teams in each division would fluctuate from year to year

[mama_tree]

When do we know what Division we are in?

[Racer26]

History says we should know divisions tomorrow.

[Joe Johnson]

Okay, if I were King of FIRST and I had decided that we were going to have a public draft of the teams in the divisions, here is how I would do it.

Whole idea: Establish a tiered scholarship structure that awards points for prediction regional outcomes. Teams that are the best at predicting the outcomes win college scholarships for their team members. The better the team is at predicting the outcomes, the more scholarship dollars that team earns for its team members.

The 4 best teams at predictions during the regionals become the drafters for the CMP (to avoid conflicts of interest, if your team is competing in the CMP your team is automatically your first draft choice).

Additional scholarships are available based on the "goodness" of your division. Goodness can be something as simple as winning on Einstein, but I think that there should be some other measures included to more broadly reflect the goals that we'd like in a division*

Each team playing the prediction game predicts the outcomes of each qualifying match of a regional n minutes prior to the start of each match. Same for each elimination match. A grand prize scholarship is given to the team that does the best at predicting the winners of the matches together with the strength of the division.

It is a crazy scheme. I admit that. But I think it would be great for a number of reasons. First, it would make people become serious about tracking FIRST teams and their performance week to week and game to game. Second, it would provide another "horse race" to follow (which team is leading in the prediction game). Third, it would provide valuable information to teams as to the strength of various teams. Fourth, it could start a sort of punditry class where we are all talking about FIRST because we have an interest in the outcomes of the various games around the country.

Fifth and finally, it would be a hoot. I think that it would really be fun to be a part of the game.

Call me nuts, but at least it is a bold plan...

Joe J.




*I know I am going far afield here but what about this additional crazy idea. What if there was a "second chance" tourney going on backstage (i.e. on the two fields farthest from Einstein) where teams that are eliminated from the divisions get a second chance to play for their own glory but also for that of their division.

Teams that are eliminated from the divisional tourneys are not "done."
After the divisional champs are crowned, the "second chance" tourney takes place on the two fields farthest from Einstein. Here is how it could work:

• The 16 alliances that lost in the QF would play 8 matches among themselves - of course, they would play alliances from other divisions.
• The losers are done.
• The winners are matched up with the 8 losing SF alliances -- again pairings are arranged to avoid divisional re-matches as much as possible.
• They play another 8 matches. The losers are done.
• The 8 remaining alliances and the 4 Finalists from the division give us enough alliances for 6 more matches which produces 6 more winners and 6 more alliances that are done.
• Those 6 alliances now play 3 more matches which produces 3 more also rans and 3 alliances (9 teams) that can call themselves "Second Chance Champions"

It is a total of 25 (=8+8+6+3) matches on 2 stages with 6 minute cycle times that is an hour and 15 minutes. It would be over before the teams even realized it happened. I don't think we allow time outs or subs or even 4 minutes between back to back matches. Play when and where you're called. If you're ready you play if not, you're done. Also, we don't make a big deal about these games. Perhaps we don't even announce the team names and numbers. "Thumbs up red, Thumbs up blue, 3 2 1 go..." As to awards, we hand them the trophy as they exit the field and that is that.

Even so, do not underestimate how great it would be to participate in this second chance tourney. Redemption is a funny thing. It requires so little to heal so much. At a minimum, it lets 9 more teams go home from the CMP having won their last match. This is a non-trivial boost to the overall mood of the event, as it allows more teams to go home winners... ...and it gives you more comparisons between the divisions so that we can decide which drafter deserves the best scholarships.

[keneajer]

If all the 50 states had a Championship event and thats how they get to the FISRT Championship, you would take the top two finals and they would be the reps for that state. So you would have 300 USA reps at the the FIRST Championship. At the FIRST Championship all the teams will get devide in to North/East/South/West.

[flippy147852]

Originally Posted by keneajer

If all the 50 states had a Championship event and thats how they get to the FISRT Championship, you would take the top two finals and they would be the reps for that state. So you would have 300 USA reps at the the FIRST Championship. At the FIRST Championship all the teams will get devide in to North/East/South/West.

Not all states have enough teams for this to work. District events with a regional championship (such as in Michigan) would need to be implimented through all of FIRST for this to be feasible.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by flippy147852

Not all states have enough teams for this to work. District events with a regional championship (such as in Michigan) would need to be implimented through all of FIRST for this to be feasible.

I'm opposed to the state based idea for many reasons, mainly that state boundaries are completely arbitrary, and that state based representation would be unfair to almost every states (Only 3 Michigan teams? Good to hear all 3 Rhode Island teams are going..., etc)

[rsilverstein]

1717 will now have been in Galileo for 3 years in a row.

I wonder if the system changes to allow "sticky" divisions, they could make this a permanent thing.