Decline of GTR Attendance

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

So stop being wusses, get your passports, and compete in Canada. We love our cold, damp neighbors to the north. We especially like winning their events.

I've been to this site far too many times:

The following outlines group travel requirements that permit student groups of 19 and younger to supply only a birth certificate for border crossings:

http://www.getyouhome.gov/html/lang_eng/eng_sa.html

Seems straightforward.

However, passports for adults aren't cheap. Not everyone expects to travel abroad and may not want to go through the expense for a one-shot trip. $100 plus postage. That doesn't include the passport photos:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/fees/fees_837.html

Not exactly a swift process either.

The passport card is a bit cheaper but still requires the usual government hassle.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt...card_3926.html

Overall, for a team with 5+ mentors, you're looking at at least a $500 additional investment. Not all teams/parents/mentors have that kind of disposable cash, as much as we'd like to think otherwise.

It's also a little bit different bringing FTC robots across the border vs. a 150 lb. FRC bot. The big boys are more likely to draw additional attention.

There are definite costs and careful decisions associated with traveling out of country to a FIRST FRC event. It's not quite as easy as saying "just do it". In that regard, we've banked 6 years of anti-wuss credits in attending the Mississauga regional, so we've earned a break, but yeah.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

As to why anyone wouldn't want to get a passport: I'm astounded. You can't go anywhere outside the US without one

I think I can explain this. I don't want to go anywhere outside the US. In all fairness, I don't care to go to most of the places within the US. It's not that there's anything wrong with those places. I just don't care to go to them. Partly laziness, partly because I like home too much. I've traveled a reasonable amount on family vacations. Saw the Niagara Falls once from both sides...got really wet...never care to go there again.(sorry, just don't like getting that wet)

My point: I really am not trying to insult any place in particular...it's just that none of them are home.

A question to any that can answer it: How do you explain that you can't take the robot out of the bag? I understand with VEX you can show them the robot(might be wrong), but with FRC you can't really do that. How do you prove to them there aren't explosives or something?

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

It's also a little bit different bringing FTC robots across the border vs. a 150 lb. FRC bot. The big boys are more likely to draw additional attention.

We had absolutely no issues bringing a bagged robot to Pittsburgh this year, US customs let us through quickly (they usually are sticklers for things like a 150lbs robot). Aslong as you have your documentation organized it shouldn't be a big issue.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

We had absolutely no issues bringing a bagged robot to Pittsburgh this year, US customs let us through quickly (they usually are sticklers for things like a 150lbs robot). Aslong as you have your documentation organized it shouldn't be a big issue.

For the benefit of others, please define "documentation" in detail. Documentation of people seems clear enough. What documentation for the robot, tools, etc. is required nowadays?

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

For the benefit of others, please define "documentation" in detail. Documentation of people seems clear enough. What documentation for the robot, tools, etc. is required nowadays?

Seriously -- border guards aren't FRC inspectors.

"What's in the back of the van?"
"We do high school robotics competitions. That's our robots and tools."
"Is that like BattleBots?"
"Not really -- think basketball, not football."
"Are you selling anything while you are in Canada?"
"No. Just going to a tournament then going home."
"Have a good time in Canada."

Just reverse the comments coming back to the US. In a dozen border crossings we've never had our boxes opened, luggage inspected, or otherwise been hassled. In either direction.

There is nothing particularly sinister about even an FRC robot. Don't worry about it.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Seriously -- border guards aren't FRC inspectors.

"What's in the back of the van?"
"We do high school robotics competitions. That's our robots and tools."
"Is that like BattleBots?"
"Not really -- think basketball, not football."
"Are you selling anything while you are in Canada?"
"No. Just going to a tournament then going home."
"Have a good time in Canada."

Just reverse the comments coming back to the US. In a dozen border crossings we've never had our boxes opened, luggage inspected, or otherwise been hassled. In either direction.

There is nothing particularly sinister about even an FRC robot. Don't worry about it.

I can vouch for this as well. Living right next door to Windsor and Sarnia, the border guards really won't give you any problems. Be polite, answer their questions truthfully, and you'll be through without a problem (even with a robot). I've brought across tool boxes that I didn't have the key for without a problem at all, along with numerous other things (sails, superchargers, turbochargers).

I have to take my sailboat across the border for regattas, and the only time I really had to wait was when of the security guards knocked himself out coming out of the hatch (didn't pay attention to the 35 foot aluminum mast laying directly over the opening and drove his head right into it coming up the ladder). The border guards got very... interesting.... looks on their faces when I ran in to tell them their friend needed medical help. Got some good laughes from them too .

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Molten

A question to any that can answer it: How do you explain that you can't take the robot out of the bag?

If the border security people say, "Take it out of the bag and show it to me" you take it out and show it to them. FIRST rules don't make any difference at all to law enforcement.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Seriously -- border guards aren't FRC inspectors.

...

Just reverse the comments coming back to the US. In a dozen border crossings we've never had our boxes opened, luggage inspected, or otherwise been hassled. In either direction.

There is nothing particularly sinister about even an FRC robot. Don't worry about it.

Sigh. You're going to make me relay the single *bad* experience we've had at the border, aren't ye? We did FRC border crossings for six years. I'm not suggesting these things based on zero past experience.

Back in 2003 or 2004, we had our team trailer (pit wall, robot cart, tools, materials, etc.) and trailer hauling personnel detained for 3 hours upon reentry into the U.S. because...well we never quite understood what the trailer folks said or did not say to cause it. A full trailer strip search ensued. I do not believe they had a list of trailer contents.

We've learned that if you don't prepare for the worst situation, that is exactly the moment in time it will happen. By suggesting that teams prepare some basic documentation, I'm asking teams to minimize their risk exposure to unpleasant situations like we went through that one year.

I'd include in documentation:

• A printout of the event's team list, showing your team number and team city/state location (especially useful if you are bringing a trailer with a team number and home location on it or are wearing team paraphernalia with the same information)
• A copy of the event agenda with dates, times, and the event's venue address
• A list of the basic tools and materials you are bringing with you, especially the ones you've packed in totes or are hidden from sight.
• A picture and description of the robot - a copy of the robot spec sheet you'd hand out to teams at a competition would suffice

Do not present the material unless asked, but have it handy in case they do. If asked, be honest and transparent in showing what you are bringing over and why you are doing it. Have keys to the trailer and any lockable storage to quickly open and show the border guards contents, if asked.

Be honest, be prepared, and you should be fine.

[dtengineering]

We've been crossing the border to play FRC for six years now, and to play VEX for the last three (usually to visit Rick and the Exothermic folks down in Redmond, NOT Seattle, right Rick?)... occasionally we have to leave a student behind because they aren't a Canadian citizen (yet). I can confirm that students, under the age of 18, travelling as part of a school group do not need a passport to cross the border, so long as they have proof of citizenship and government issued photo ID (a student card works fine). I can also confirm that students without proper documentation will not be allowed to cross the border.

Almost all our students have Canadian passports, however, and I encourage them to get them well in advance of robot season if they don't. It does make life easier. I take care of getting travel medical insurance for all of them... group rates are pretty cheap for young people on a short trip, and... well... I was going to say something about health insurance, but I understand that is a bit of touchy subject south of the 49th these days.

We have never had any problem driving across the border, unless you count an hour long wait coming home from Seattle on an Easter weekend a "problem". However we don't bring a trailer, and we do try to cross as a convoy, and while our documentation isn't quite as extensive as Travis has, that is mostly because we aren't carrying quite as much "stuff".

Oh... but do remember to mention to students that it isn't a good idea to cross the border if you have a criminal record as part of your trip planning.

We have never had a problem shipping our robot across the border, either, although there is additional paperwork involved. (And I'm crossing my fingers here, because our machine hasn't made it back from Seattle yet.)

So by and large, crossing the Canada/US border is a small hassle, but is likely perceived as a larger one by many teams thanks to the media attention and occasional, unfortunate, experiences that sometimes happen.

But back to the main point of the thread... I can add that the EASE of crossing the border has kept us AWAY from GTR, and for the past three years (ever since Seattle started up) we've found it much more affordable to compete with our friends two hours drive to the south than our friends five hour's flight to the east. Even the Portland regional is an inexpensive trip for us relative to GTR.

I know that the cost of getting out to Toronto has "worn down" some of the other FRC teams in Western Canada, to the point where we are the only ones left this year.

So when looking at 2006 vs 2010, you'll be missing four Western Canadian teams, two from Vancouver, and one each from Red Deer and Calgary, at GTR.

<edit: My apologies... the "death" of 1482 from Calgary has been greatly exaggerated. When I looked, earlier in season, they hadn't registered... but it appears they were, indeed at GTR this year.>

Jason

P.S. The BEST thing about crossing the border on the way home:

"Where have you been?"

"At a robot competition in Seattle."

"How long have you been away?"

"Three days."

"Anything to declare?"

"Yes sir... total purchases of $375.50, no alcohol or tobacco... AND THIS!" (holding up trophy)

[Racer26]

With the advent of the Bag & Tag system, I would expect teams to have LESS difficulty crossing the border to join us in either Waterloo or GTR. We've been attending Kettering Kickoff and Brunswick Eruption since 2007, and simply brought our bot with us in a trailer. Never had a problem in either direction over the border, just tell them where you're going and what you're doing. People smuggling stuff across the border arent going to make up that they're going to a robot competition.

[Bongle]

I thought it might have to do with FIRST encouraging more matches per team at each regional. GTR started early on Friday and Saturday, and ran pretty late (4:45 on Friday, 12:30 on Saturday). If they'd had to deal with more teams, they would have had to start even earlier and end later if they wanted the same # of matches.

I do miss the double-field action though; it made it seem like a Really Big Event. The 12-alliance finals were neat too. Maybe with the millions from the provincial government GTR can get back to its double-fielded glory in the future.

As for the border, my friends and I have had very little trouble crossing it in both directions, even with expensive/weird things like LeMons race cars and spare engines. Both years, the border guard seemed far more interested in LeMons ("For $500 cars? That sounds fun! Good luck!") than in border-guardey stuff.

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by Bongle

I thought it might have to do with FIRST encouraging more matches per team at each regional. GTR started early on Friday and Saturday, and ran pretty late (4:45 on Friday, 12:30 on Saturday). If they'd had to deal with more teams, they would have had to start even earlier and end later if they wanted the same # of matches.

We had more teams in Seattle (64) than GTR, and everyone managed to get 9 matches in without any problems, so I don't think thats it. (The FIRSTWA folks are justifiably proud of their volunteer crew.... they are GREAT!)

It might have something to do with the economy... although, truth be told, with the entry fees at $5000 and the Canadian dollar at, or close, to par with the USA, this has been the least expensive year for us as far as entry fees since we started with FIRST.

But if we'd lost our major sponsors at GM, the season was in jeopardy for us. I'm sure there are at least a few teams who pulled out for financial reasons.

Jason

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Molten

My point: I really am not trying to insult any place in particular...it's just that none of them are home.

Well, I can completely understand that. I'm partial to home, but like seeing different things. I don't think there's anything "bad" about either approach, really.

As for the cash outlay for a passport: Yes, I am fortunate to be employed at the moment, but were I not, i could easily see a passport as a luxury that falls way off the 'need' list.

(Passport photos: Take a digital photo, edit it so it's 2 photos the right size in one image, go to CVS or some place that lets you print out a digital photo for 20 cents or something; no need for real photographic paper, I researched that already.

[Doc Wu]

I'm with a team that was at GTR two years ago (1507) and and formerly with a team that won GTR back closer to 2000 (378).

We'd like to attend Toronto's regional more, but so far the main issues have been the border requirements and the shipping.

When we attended last, students and for that matter adults, could return to the US with only basic proof of citizenship (birth certificate, draft card, etc.) along with a photo ID. Carrying tools, trailers, etc. should still be unchanged. Just have a detailed list of what you bring and - this is important - stop on the way out and have the list filed with the US border people. They will give you a form that proves what you're carrying back in came with you.

The shipping was a big added cost. I'm not involved in the shipping end of things, so I don't know all the details, but I was under the impression that the customs brokering was an added fee and that we couldn't use one of the "free" FedEx shipments across the border. We still managed to do it the one year, though. Bag and tag might alleviate that.

As for the bag and tag, I see no problem with breaking the seal for a customs inspection. They do it all the time for tractor trailers and they just reseal them. I'm sure there can be some provision for this made in FIRST's rules. I don't know what kind of seal a bag and tagged bot gets, but I'm sure something could be done, even if an additional seal had to be issued for border crossings.

The main problem now is the passport requirement. It may be more of a perceived problem and fade away as more and more people get them on their own.

I don't want to get all political, but I'm a bit irritated that I have to pay for some paperwork to get back into my own country, when the country I'm visiting is perfectly happy with only basic proof of identity, such as a drivers license. I'm over 50 and have lived within 20 miles of the Canadian border all my life and have gone there frequently without any hassles. I volunteered at marathons that crossed the border and have ridden across the border on a bicycle many times. I've skied all over Western Canada. But not any more. The cost of a passport is too high and takes too long to get to consider it anything but an added fee and inconvenience. I'll probably get an enhanced drivers license next time I renew my license, but they bumped that up to 8 years in a money grab a while back, so that's a while off. My drivers license is 6 years old and barely readable. They'd love to have me renew it two years early and pay an extra $65 for the enhanced version.

So that's what I see as a major problem with getting US teams to come to Canadian Regionals. It's not that we don't like them (Actually, we love Canada! I can see the Toronto skyline across the lake from less than a mile from my home. I watch Canadian TV over the air all the time.) it's the hassle our own country puts us through, treating us like we're some kind of "terrorists."

As I said, it probably all perception, but the perception might be slow to fade...

[Racer26]

I suspect that you could write on your robot lockup form the unlock and re-lock with new tag AT the border with a note saying "US Department of Homeland Security Inspection". I highly doubt any robot inspector is going to give you flack for that one.