The Divisions...

[ExTexan]

I am proposing a thought experiment along the lines of "can it be better?"

I think perhaps it can. The idea came to me listening to Verbrugge talk about this or that team at the MSC having success in Curie or Newton in year X. It struck me that while Einstein means something, Curie, Newton, Archimedes or Galeleo are meaningless other than that they are CMP divisions and they are not Einstein.

I like keeping in mind "can it be better?" Along with that comes "let's define better".

I agree that if each field had an identity, i.e. Big 12, Big 10, it would mean something and that part would be better. If the end result was that a lot of better teams (significantly more than now) consistently didn't go to Einstein because of the depth of quality of a particular field then it may not be better, or even fair for that matter. That happens in the various college conferences. Also the college conferences rise and fall in quality and depth of quality.

I don't have a ready idea for creating a lasting identity for each field but I will think about it. It would be a nice affect assuming the repercussions were not bad.

I wonder how it would be possible to assign teams to an Atlanta (St. Louis) field at the beginning of the season? It would give somewhat of a one year identity in which you could know who you may be playing against, plan, have discussions and rivalry throughout the season and build a little identity.

Obviously the qualifying, attending, etc. implications are huge but just another thought. I am not a fan of a regional situation (for the four fields) being in Michigan for all the reasons stated. Michigan needs to be spread out in my opinion.

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by Enigma's puzzle

What if the Divisional Captains were put in charge of freezing teams. There would be an number of alotted freezes, maybe equal to the number of HOF and Original teams. Each of these HOF and Original Teams make a selection of a team, that was in their division, to become FROZEN. Then the teams would be frozen for 4 or 5 years, depending how the numbers worked, and in the end of that time they are either let go, or reUped for another 4 or 5 years of service. All the left over teams would be added to round out the division.

Good idea but I am concerned about the repercussions. Will teams have their feel like no one wants them if they are not FROZEN? There is already some animosity towards the "elite" teams (search CD if you dont believe me but it is not pretty) and this might make it worse.

The key to the Randomised Autopick draft in my first post no one knows (even the Captians, FIRST HQ etc...) who was picked and what order (but it still should even out the divisions strength among the non Captains and give the Captains some control). More teams will feel like they were picked than actually were. Since there are representatives from most regions in each Division teams, even lesser-known-nationally teams can believe they were noticed and picked. If you are often in the same division, then you believe your division really thinks highly of your team. If you bounce around divisions, then you believe the division captains are competing over your team. Overall, it really doesn't matter whether you were picked or not but it is nice to think you were

I want Division Captain role to be more about the pageantry than the power (figureheads ). Organise the HOF booths by division and have some space for the other Division Captains, this is your division HQ to display what makes your division great. Make college football style traveling trophies using the themes of your divisions for match-ups on Einstein. For example when Curie beat Archimedes on Einstein last year, wouldn't it have been better if afterwards the Archi captains presented Curie captains with The Radioactive Archimedes' Screw trophy (for the other match-up I am thinking about the Apple Telescope but it could be better). Right now few people even remember which divisions meet in Einstein Semis. If we had these trophies, Archi division would be thinking "We gotta get the Screw back from Curie!". Captains would also lead planning of social events for their divisions (this could turn into a mini competition of its own).

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

<snip> Make college football style traveling trophies using the themes of your divisions for match-ups on Einstein. For example when Curie beat Archimedes on Einstein last year, wouldn't it have been better if afterwards the Archi captains presented Curie captains with The Radioactive Archimedes' Screw trophy (for the other match-up I am thinking about the Apple Telescope but it could be better). Right now few people even remember which divisions meet in Einstein Semis. If we had these trophies, Archi division would be thinking "We gotta get the Screw back from Curie!". Captains would also lead planning of social events for their divisions (this could turn into a mini competition of its own).

Now THAT is what I'm TALKING ABOUT!!! That there is some 1st rate brain work.

I love the idea of divisional rivalry spurred on by a trophy. NICE!

What other ideas are out there?

Joe J.

[Emily3204]

I think the alliance winners from each regional should be placed in the same division

[artdutra04]

A web-casted drafted selection process for the four divisions on Atlanta would be interesting, but I'm worried about the whiner squadron. They're the reason why we can't have nice things.

But let's say we can placate the whiners and anti-elitist/anti-powerhouse sentiments, and we're actually able to implement a drafting system. We'd need four "Chief Inspirers" to do the picking. But who could we choose? Would we want them to be FIRST leadership figures like Dean, Woodie? Or how about we randomly choose four Championship Woodie Flowers Award winners each year. Let's say the latter is chosen, and then let's have them do some kind of a challenge on the webcast, and the four winners get to be the Chief Inspirers.

Now that they get chosen, they make it into some kind of game show or similar venture where they get to make their division picks in rounds. Each round they get ten teams. Depending on how successful each Chief Inspirer is as their tasks, they get a set number of chosen picks and a set number of random picks. Let's say the "winner" of a challenge gets 8 chosen teams and 2 random teams; the 2nd place gets 6 chosen and 4 random, 3rd place gets 4 chosen and 6 random, and 4th gets 2 chosen and 8 random.

The challenge for each round is created by a specific Region of the country/world, with each Region having an identical number of teams. So you'll get the Midwest Challenge, the Canada Challenge, and New England Challenge, the Florida Challenge, etc. The order of the challenges would be randomized each year. The challenge should be something related to FRC and the specific region, and also something funny. Each region gets to select and vote on their Challenge each season prior to the drafting selection.

Because some challenges might not have a definite winner, there will be a judges panel. Let's say we get three of four other well known FIRSTers, plus Dave Lavery. Each of them gets a whiteboard for "feedback", not unlike the IRI talent show.

This goes through the eight rounds. If the initial selection of the Chief Inspirers takes six minutes, and each of the eight rounds take another six minutes, with a final six minute conclusion, that's a one-hour webcast program. If each round is cut to five minutes, then it allows for a brief commercial break between each round for sponsors who are sponsoring the Championship event.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

<snip> but I'm worried about the whiner squadron. <snip>

I like the term Whiner Squadron. I think I am going to steal it.

I have an idea for how to determine the pickers at the Championships but it is a bit involved and I will have to craft the message with love and care I cannot commit during lunch. So...

...stay tuned for my evil genius plan. Muahahahahah!!!!

Joe J.

[Rob]

Ok I am going to throw some ideas out there. I know that some of these may have some big problems, but hopefully they can get more ideas flowing!

1) What if instead of registering for Champs, you were able to register for a division at champs?

2) How about doing something to tie in the division names to the team after-party on Saturday night?

3) (I'm going to get killed on this one...) What if each division had a slight nuance that varied the game rules (like the American League vs. the minor..eh National League)?

4) What if you play all your qual rounds against teams from your division but your elimination matchups are against other divisions?

5) How about some little side competitions between the divisions? Such as longest kick..quickest hang, etc. This is inspired by team 180 doing the "pull tests" back in 2002...

Just jumping outside the box for a bit...have fun!

Rob

[Chris Hibner]

Rob has some interesting ideas.

The old story from the University of Michigan football program under Bo Schembechler was that in order to provide some motivation to play hard in the spring game, the winners got to eat steak for the post game meal while the losers had to eat hot dogs.

What about something like that for the team party? All team members from the winning division gets one or more of the following at the party: a) better food, b) "fast passes" to jump the line at the games/rides, c) special seating, d) VIP entertainment, etc.

That won't help division history, but it will make people cheer more for their division to win while at the event.

[TD78]

Originally Posted by Rob

4) What if you play all your qual rounds against teams from your division but your elimination matchups are against other divisions?

I find this one the most interesting. It would certainly spice things up!

[ExTexan]

What about something like that for the team party? All team members from the winning division gets one or more of the following at the party: a) better food, b) "fast passes" to jump the line at the games/rides, c) special seating, d) VIP entertainment, etc.

I like a lot! It is a fast build for division identity.

And you could even start earlier...Divisional rewards for high score on Thursday between divisions, most hanging points, 6 in auto....Gets the teams into a more divisional contest.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

What about something like that for the team party? All team members from the winning division gets one or more of the following at the party: a) better food, b) "fast passes" to jump the line at the games/rides, c) special seating, d) VIP entertainment, etc.

That won't help division history, but it will make people cheer more for their division to win while at the event.

To expand upon this idea:

Perhaps the Division Winners get a $5000 Credit to be used towards registration or event entry fees the following year? Also, I think Division Winners should qualify for the following year's Championship and be placed in the same division they won to "Defend their Title".

Maybe the World Champions could get this $5000 and perks plus Free Entry to the following year's Championship?

Maybe the Championship Chairman's Winner could get the same as the World Champs plus a a reduced entry fee for all subsequent Championships?

If you created a system like this, I'm sure you'd see teams playing a hell of a lot harder in the Finals.

[rulesall2]

I really like this idea, however the implication may get complicated... let's just see how this plays out.

Some suggestions:

1) What if teams attending could submit a form that had one(or any amount really) team they wanted to be in the same division with and why. This would be the basis for division formation. Then some sort of rule would make up who stays and who moves divisions for the following year. This would guarantee teams the ability to play against teams they don't normally see, but still have partnerships with. (ex. 2791 and 1726, etc.)

2) At the beginning of the first year, all veteran teams would be assigned a division based on some random algorithm that accounted for frequency of attendance of teams (to prevent imbalances). At the end of Week 5 once all teams have qualified, any imbalances would be accounted for with the non-permanent placement of the rookie qualifiers in the divisions. Each year afterwards, the teams that attended championships the previous year would remain in that division and teams that did not attend would be redistributed throughout the divisions, with rookie teams once again providing the balancing of the numbers.

Thoughts? (P.S. Great idea Joe.)

[HashemReza]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Just to be clear, I am not saying that the current system is broken. I LOVE the current system. So to all those who say that this is fixing a problem that doesn't exist, you are correct but misguided.

Absolutely, we're taught that it's through iteration that our creations become more perfect. In the end, if there is room for improvement, I believe it's our duty to strive for it.

Now, my only criteria for an improved system is that it doesn't cause some incredible powerhouse alliance guarantees. By this, I mean that if, for example, 2056 and 1114 are in the same division each year by virtue of whatever method used to "lock" teams to a division, I would be quite worried of the two teaming up each year. What would the harm be? History has shown that those teams consistently seed high. What's stopping them from making a pact that each year they'll always choose the other? Who's to stop them?

Perhaps that's a moot point, but I worry about some of those elite teams forming championship alliances that last a lifetime.

Originally Posted by Rob

4) What if you play all your qual rounds against teams from your division but your elimination matchups are against other divisions?

I must say, that's an interesting idea. It would certainly complicate scouting, which I don't really appreciate (as the manager of scouting for my team) .

Inevitably, decisions regarding the placement of teams will result in some griping about fairness towards one person or another. It might be better to consider leaving the means by which divisions are created, and instead mess around with some creative bracketing like what Rob proposed.

[J_Miles]

Well, I quickly thought of two ways to organize such a thing:

1:
Organize geographical divisions, based solely on region. Based on the number of divisions, they would be distributed randomly between the four divisions at FWC, this way there would be some type of random aspect involved, but it wouldn't be entirely random.

2:
Organize divisions based on performance. Use an international points system to view the international rankings of qualifying teams, and then divide divisions up by ranking. Once this has been done, the teams from each division could be evenly distributed throughout the divisions at FWC. This way, you'd have an even mix of teams of every caliber throughout the entire competition, no one field would be "stacked," and the possibility of a close, if not necessarily even, match-up on Einstein would be improved.

The issues with that idea are that placing top ranked teams in every division would very possibly take away any chances for some certain teams to compete in the division, but even if there weren't top-ranked teams in every division, these less-powerful teams would simply be routed at Einstein anyways. It's the best system I could come up with.

[sammyjalex]

I really like a lot of these ideas. I'm hopeful that they would at some point be implemented.

My favorites include having teams locked into divisions thus in this way networking for students across the world at CMP becomes much more convenient having seen the same teams year after year for getting to know and recognize the members and also the idea of allowing winning teams for that year to draft their alliance thus encouraging scouting across regionals for the entire team and getting involved in FIRST on an international level more than just a team level; learning more design techniques than just those discussed as a team that build season.

These are striking to me because I know many teams struggle to get their students to watch matches other than those their team is in and a draft may encourage this and also simply because a great tool FIRST offers that is not utilized enough is CD; it's the networking between students and teams which is not utilized enough. Adolescents (and adults) inherently find some difficulty meeting people in large social atmospheres like regionals and CMP but it is a fantastic advantage of FIRST to make friends all over the world and a lock on divisions someway would provide this.

For this reason of inter-regional scouting and mingling, I am against the idea of regional divisions. The best ideas I have heard with regards to who make up the divisions have been the idea of a draft using winning teams as division captains in charge of socials etc. as well as incentives like a divisional trophy passed around from year to year. It is my belief that if there will be better teams around strategically when inter-regional scouting is done than just that one you know locally thus preventing dynasties of nearby powerhouses as Cameron mentioned.

Jiust my $.02

Sam Alexander