The Divisions...

[mama_tree]

When do we know what Division we are in?

[Racer26]

History says we should know divisions tomorrow.

[Joe Johnson]

Okay, if I were King of FIRST and I had decided that we were going to have a public draft of the teams in the divisions, here is how I would do it.

Whole idea: Establish a tiered scholarship structure that awards points for prediction regional outcomes. Teams that are the best at predicting the outcomes win college scholarships for their team members. The better the team is at predicting the outcomes, the more scholarship dollars that team earns for its team members.

The 4 best teams at predictions during the regionals become the drafters for the CMP (to avoid conflicts of interest, if your team is competing in the CMP your team is automatically your first draft choice).

Additional scholarships are available based on the "goodness" of your division. Goodness can be something as simple as winning on Einstein, but I think that there should be some other measures included to more broadly reflect the goals that we'd like in a division*

Each team playing the prediction game predicts the outcomes of each qualifying match of a regional n minutes prior to the start of each match. Same for each elimination match. A grand prize scholarship is given to the team that does the best at predicting the winners of the matches together with the strength of the division.

It is a crazy scheme. I admit that. But I think it would be great for a number of reasons. First, it would make people become serious about tracking FIRST teams and their performance week to week and game to game. Second, it would provide another "horse race" to follow (which team is leading in the prediction game). Third, it would provide valuable information to teams as to the strength of various teams. Fourth, it could start a sort of punditry class where we are all talking about FIRST because we have an interest in the outcomes of the various games around the country.

Fifth and finally, it would be a hoot. I think that it would really be fun to be a part of the game.

Call me nuts, but at least it is a bold plan...

Joe J.




*I know I am going far afield here but what about this additional crazy idea. What if there was a "second chance" tourney going on backstage (i.e. on the two fields farthest from Einstein) where teams that are eliminated from the divisions get a second chance to play for their own glory but also for that of their division.

Teams that are eliminated from the divisional tourneys are not "done."
After the divisional champs are crowned, the "second chance" tourney takes place on the two fields farthest from Einstein. Here is how it could work:

• The 16 alliances that lost in the QF would play 8 matches among themselves - of course, they would play alliances from other divisions.
• The losers are done.
• The winners are matched up with the 8 losing SF alliances -- again pairings are arranged to avoid divisional re-matches as much as possible.
• They play another 8 matches. The losers are done.
• The 8 remaining alliances and the 4 Finalists from the division give us enough alliances for 6 more matches which produces 6 more winners and 6 more alliances that are done.
• Those 6 alliances now play 3 more matches which produces 3 more also rans and 3 alliances (9 teams) that can call themselves "Second Chance Champions"

It is a total of 25 (=8+8+6+3) matches on 2 stages with 6 minute cycle times that is an hour and 15 minutes. It would be over before the teams even realized it happened. I don't think we allow time outs or subs or even 4 minutes between back to back matches. Play when and where you're called. If you're ready you play if not, you're done. Also, we don't make a big deal about these games. Perhaps we don't even announce the team names and numbers. "Thumbs up red, Thumbs up blue, 3 2 1 go..." As to awards, we hand them the trophy as they exit the field and that is that.

Even so, do not underestimate how great it would be to participate in this second chance tourney. Redemption is a funny thing. It requires so little to heal so much. At a minimum, it lets 9 more teams go home from the CMP having won their last match. This is a non-trivial boost to the overall mood of the event, as it allows more teams to go home winners... ...and it gives you more comparisons between the divisions so that we can decide which drafter deserves the best scholarships.

[M.Wong]

As a team member from a Michigan team, we've had our share of playing other Michigan teams. The great part of Atlanta is getting to see teams you don't normally get to see (330, 1538, 365, etc.)

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

That would be very very cool. What if, tonight, at 9:00pm, we all would gather to watch a webcast with Dean and Woodie describing each of the divisions. Better yet, we could have key people from around the country Skype-ing in with their assessment for each grouping. Looking Forward could chime in, wearing a ski mask. The amazing CarNack could even give his input. I would be willing to help make this work next year. Andy

Maybe half-time of the NCAA Championship game!

Half of the division on the Mens night, the other half on Womens night.

[keneajer]

If all the 50 states had a Championship event and thats how they get to the FISRT Championship, you would take the top two finals and they would be the reps for that state. So you would have 300 USA reps at the the FIRST Championship. At the FIRST Championship all the teams will get devide in to North/East/South/West.

[BHOP]

I would definetly second the effort for better stuff for winning alliances at the "after party" (VIP, food(steak haha),etc...)

After winning you are tired from yelling, screaming, and changing batteries. All you want is some decent food and a place to sit. Now you have to go back, pack up the crate, pack up the trailer, then walk over to the championship celebration thing. You arrive only to see old food that is left out, and no good seats left in the house for that nights entertainment. The party is even practically over.

Teams "stuck" on einstein should definetly get some sort of reward, because both times I've done it, the after part sucked.

[JackG]

After giving this some thought, I've realized that plenty of the suggestions people are proposing stem from varying priorities. I think we can sum up the priorities people have in mind.

• Equal distribution of power/ balanced arrangement of powerhouse teams
• Regional representation/ regional pride
• Divisional pride/tradition/rivalries
• See/play teams from other parts of the world/country
• Not being stuck permanently in a division
• Creating an event out of the selection process
• Teams being able to select their own divisions
• Teams being able to select other teams for their own division
• No hurt feelings for drafting, nobody being able to know who was picked last
• Playing for permanence (i.e. winning to become part of a certain division)
• Division-wide prize for winning division

The "best" idea will probably incorporate as many of those as possible, so as to placate the most people. Many of the systems that people are proposing have aspects that are not mutually exclusive, so taking parts from one system and adding them to another might produce a good idea that (almost) everyone can get behind.

[flippy147852]

Originally Posted by keneajer

If all the 50 states had a Championship event and thats how they get to the FISRT Championship, you would take the top two finals and they would be the reps for that state. So you would have 300 USA reps at the the FIRST Championship. At the FIRST Championship all the teams will get devide in to North/East/South/West.

Not all states have enough teams for this to work. District events with a regional championship (such as in Michigan) would need to be implimented through all of FIRST for this to be feasible.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by flippy147852

Not all states have enough teams for this to work. District events with a regional championship (such as in Michigan) would need to be implimented through all of FIRST for this to be feasible.

I'm opposed to the state based idea for many reasons, mainly that state boundaries are completely arbitrary, and that state based representation would be unfair to almost every states (Only 3 Michigan teams? Good to hear all 3 Rhode Island teams are going..., etc)

[ExTexan]

Fifth and finally, it would be a hoot. I think that it would really be fun to be a part of the game.

Joe, there is a whole lot that I like about your idea. I think it does accomplish the initial goal of emphasizing some divisional pride.

I think it would accomplish filling a void in larger First teams. There is only so much building a robot that can be done by only so many people. There is only so much award work, website, etc. that can be done and not everyone likes to do either. This offers a lot of creative opportunities in developing scouting systems and new ways to perfect processes and systems. And the students are doing something with huge benefits to the team and having their efforts and results displayed weekly (unlike many of the functions performed by students).

And, win or lose, it's a competition in itself. Not every team can build a robot to compete on Einstein. But every team can do this very well. I think we need more competition opportunities not involved with building the best performing robot. And it would be great fun! Great thoughts!!

Also, I think some posters missed the intent of another suggestion, additional rewards, i.e. VIP party stuff etc. I did not interpret the initial suggestion to go to Einstein competing teams but to every team on a particular field. Divisional pride. Winning Einstein has its own rewards!

[Dancin103]

BTW we usually know divisions by now. I don't remember having to wait this long in the history of FIRST.

Oh, this is my 365 post, go Moe.

Cass

[davidalln]

Originally Posted by Dancin103

BTW we usually know divisions by now. I don't remember having to wait this long in the history of FIRST.

Oh, this is my 365 post, go Moe.

Cass

Yeah, tonight was definitely a terrible night for the divisions to "supposedly" come out. Why do I find myself constantly refreshing the 2010 Championships web page hoping to see "Team List" links under the four divisions when there is an unopened textbook and all of World War II to study for tomorrow's test...

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by ExTexan

Joe, there is a whole lot that I like about your idea.<snip>

Thanks. Everyone likes complements (me especially ;-)

I have been thinking more about this and I think that it may be a very cool aspect of the game. Suppose just before we got the match started, you revealed the predictions? It would be another thing to motivate teams to do well to "prove em wrong" as well as something to kill time during a time out.

Imagine if there was an iphone and android app to allow teams to enter data about there robot -- "just got our hanger working" "drivetrain whacked" etc. I am thinking about some sort of Twitter/Facebook/Hot or Not/Google analytics mash up that would let teams track the various players on the chess board.

It would be a huge effort, but FIRST IS ALREADY a huge effort. This would be building in a new direction.

I also have been thinking about the "Second Chance Bracket" idea.

I think that is probably worth a new thread. Stay tuned...

Joe J.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Imagine if there was an iphone and android app to allow teams to enter data about there robot -- "just got our hanger working" "drivetrain whacked" etc. I am thinking about some sort of Twitter/Facebook/Hot or Not/Google analytics mash up that would let teams track the various players on the chess board.

Joe J.

Hmmm.... This just gave me an idea totally unrelated to whether this division thing gets off the ground or not.

Thanks Joe!