District/Regional Format

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Collin Fultz

How exactly is it a "very low" thing to do? FIRST allows you to hold back 65 lbs. If most teams wanted to, they could have rebuilt their robots into a 469/67 type looper. Our frame + drive + electronics is easily over 55 lbs. We'll have had 3.5 weeks between Boilermaker and Championships. Did we do this? Nope. We've been working on making the robot we designed better (improved autonomous, better ball grabber, driver practice). Is it fair that we have a second robot and room to build part of a field while other teams cannot? NO WAY! To me, it's much more fair for teams to just never have to ship their robots. Then, all teams going to Week 5 events would be in the same boat. I would bet that if a team tried to build a "better" 469 in the weeks between Week 1 and their competition, they'd end up with an inferior robot on the field. Very few teams in FIRST can prototype, design, and fabricate a robot that quickly (then practice, break, fix, and debug that same robot).

In this hypothetical situation, if the team did pull off creating a better version of another robot, I would applaud their efforts and know that they worked their butts off. But don't forget, the good teams that figure out these "dominant" strategies early enough to build a great robot are CONSTANTLY improving their strategies, driving skills, autonomous, and every other aspect of the robot between their competitions, too.

The goal of FIRST is to Inspire. In my opinion, all three options I laid out can only help grow FIRST to reach its goal of Inspiring as many kids as possible.

Take as an example, 33 last year. (Sorry Jim) After seeing 67's dominant machine they rebuilt their robot to be a wide dumper similar to 67's. They had the added benefit of a crab drive system underneath. LOGICALLY they should have been better than 67 because the upper structure was nearly identical and the drive train was imho better. Why did 67 win another blue banner while 33 got knocked out in the semi's? I always attribute it to driver practice. Their drivers practiced playing one way but the new system required a different style of play. Winning in FRC isn't all about the robot, it is about the drivers practicing and communicating.

Please note, this is NOT knocking 33. There are very few teams that consistently awe me with every aspect of their program.

[Jim Zondag]

Andrew,
No problem...our efforts last year were just an extreme example of what we never stop doing: CONTINUOUS IMPROVEMENT. We made a 39.8 lb replacement part for the Championship. This took considerable time and effort, but it was something we felt that we needed to last year.
I personally have never truly understood FIRST's motivation to restrict our access to the machines. I know that many believe that it is to make things more fair, but in realility all it really does is widen the gap between the teams with a lot of resources and the teams with less. There is no other machine sport on earth that I know of where they take your machine away from you.
Shipping/bagging is a vestige of a time in which most teams went to a single event. The now that we are playing a SEASON it no longer makes sense.
To me the most tragic thing about shipping/bagging is the fact that it prevents teams from self-promoting effectively precisely when we have the best opportunity to do so. You build hype BEFORE the big game, not AFTER. We are Robotics teams, and showing people our robots is the single best way to fulfill Dean's homework assignement and get outsiders to our events.
Teams are their own best advocates, by taking away the robots, FIRST takes away our best promotional tool. If Dean wants us to complete his homework, then he should eliminate these obsolete rules to allow us to do this effectively.

[Al3+]

It's been my impression that the purpose of ship date is to impose on us an artificial time constraint. 6 weeks is hardly enough time to build a robot. But it just means we have to exercise good time management.

This is why team 840 did not hold back anything this year, even though we really could have used some drive practice, we believed it was against the spirit of the competition.

Also, having no ship date would intrinsically cause some unfairness. Say that Team A and Team B both attend only 1 regional, Team A's event is on week 1 and Team B's event is on week 5. Team B gets 4 extra weeks to build their robot! Even if they don't try to "copy" successful designs, it doesn't change the fact that they are much more prepared for their event than Team A is.

Then again this is assuming both teams only attend 1 event, which wouldn't be the case under the district system. Still, timing differences would be an issue. With ship date, the same deadline is imposed on every team.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Al3+

It's been my impression that the purpose of ship date is to impose on us an artificial time constraint. 6 weeks is hardly enough time to build a robot. But it just means we have to exercise good time management.

This is why team 840 did not hold back anything this year, even though we really could have used some drive practice, we believed it was against the spirit of the competition.

Also, having no ship date would intrinsically cause some unfairness. Say that Team A and Team B both attend only 1 regional, Team A's event is on week 1 and Team B's event is on week 5. Team B gets 4 extra weeks to build their robot! Even if they don't try to "copy" successful designs, it doesn't change the fact that they are much more prepared for their event than Team A is.

Then again this is assuming both teams only attend 1 event, which wouldn't be the case under the district system. Still, timing differences would be an issue. With ship date, the same deadline is imposed on every team.

Team A would compete against teams who have a similar disadvantage. Now, at the Championship level it could be a problem but if all teams get their robot back and have time to work on it after their events this difference goes away.

[Al3+]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Team A would compete against teams who have a similar disadvantage. Now, at the Championship level it could be a problem but if all teams get their robot back and have time to work on it after their events this difference goes away.

That's true. Event timing should ideally still be consistent for everyone, but with a team attending 2 district events in 4 weeks, variations in event timing probably won't influence performance by much either way.

Sounds like a good idea.

[kwotremb]

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag

To me the most tragic thing about shipping/bagging is the fact that it prevents teams from self-promoting effectively precisely when we have the best opportunity to do so. You build hype BEFORE the big game, not AFTER. We are Robotics teams, and showing people our robots is the single best way to fulfill Dean's homework assignement and get outsiders to our events.
Teams are their own best advocates, by taking away the robots, FIRST takes away our best promotional tool. If Dean wants us to complete his homework, then he should eliminate these obsolete rules to allow us to do this effectively.

I think this is one of the better reasons I have heard to not have a ship/bag-tag date. This would work really well for those teams that made it to championships but need a few more dollars to get there. They can bring their robot around to local companies and be able to show them their robot itself. Without this all you can do is show them pictures, but having a robot there would make it easier to get them as a sponsor. Personally I can see positives to both sides.

As far as districts go I do hope they do this nation wide. It is a good way to get out and be able to play a lot of matches/events. Like many it will depend on how they split up the nation. Overall I think natural geography rather than state lines should play more of a role into where teams land. I dont think teams should be able to change the district they compete in, but allowing them to play in a 3rd event outside of there district if theres room would be a decent idea. Hope they do it and curious to see where the lines end up. Sounded like last year this would probably happen after the competition this year.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by kwotremb

I think this is one of the better reasons I have heard to not have a ship/bag-tag date. This would work really well for those teams that made it to championships but need a few more dollars to get there. They can bring their robot around to local companies and be able to show them their robot itself. Without this all you can do is show them pictures, but having a robot there would make it easier to get them as a sponsor. Personally I can see positives to both sides.

As far as districts go I do hope they do this nation wide. It is a good way to get out and be able to play a lot of matches/events. Like many it will depend on how they split up the nation. Overall I think natural geography rather than state lines should play more of a role into where teams land. I dont think teams should be able to change the district they compete in, but allowing them to play in a 3rd event outside of there district if theres room would be a decent idea. Hope they do it and curious to see where the lines end up. Sounded like last year this would probably happen after the competition this year.

Agreed! I think that districts too will have a better ability to help complete Dean's homework as they are more "local" events. It seems that more public comes to see some off-season events in Manchester such as River Rage than GSR. Yes, that assumption may be wrong a little, but I hear a ton of people walk in the doors saying they heard there was a robotics competition and decided to come in. How many people will travel 40+mins to a regional to watch a team compete from their local high school? Most likely only family and close, close friends would do that. If a state had several districts spread out, the public would have an easier time coming into the regional right down the street than a trip down the highway.

EDIT: I would like to apologize for two posts I made earlier in this thread as I did not think thoroughly through the idea and they were not related to this thread which is why they were deleted.

[Karibou]

Last year, I wasn't a fan of the District format. I hated it, because it meant no travelling out of state (going to Pittsburgh as my first FIRST event freshman year was the highlight of my season). Since then, I've been somewhat converted. In 2009, we would have been able to only go to one event, because of monetary issues. The district format allowed us to attend two events, and gave us time to fundraise for states. While MI doesn't have the worst economy in the nation (to my knowledge), we have one of the highest concentrations of FRC teams all badgering for the little money that's available. From a financial standpoint, FiM is great.

However, I don't support the idea of implementing the same system in other states, because of the travel constraints it would impose. If we were to shut out all of the events in the Northeast, all of the events in CA, and all of the events in MI...well, that would put the teams who don't live in those areas in a VERY difficult situation. Teams from Nevada wouldn't be able to go to their CA events. You wouldn't see 217 at FLR, and you wouldn't see a lot of the Canadian teams outside of Canada (Israel would be the one exception, though - open that up to Israel and Turkey and any other teams from the Middle East area, and it would be a great event. Especially given the struggles from this year). Somebody mentioned that MI kids aren't as exposed to the rest of the FRC world outside of MI, and I completely agree. Soon, very few MI kids will recognize names like Wildstang, MORT, Exploding Bacon, etc.

(my quick $0.02 while waiting for our team meeting to start)

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by Karibou

However, I don't support the idea of implementing the same system in other states, because of the travel constraints it would impose. If we were to shut out all of the events in the Northeast, all of the events in CA, and all of the events in MI...well, that would put the teams who don't live in those areas in a VERY difficult situation. Teams from Nevada wouldn't be able to go to their CA events. You wouldn't see 217 at FLR, and you wouldn't see a lot of the Canadian teams outside of Canada... Somebody mentioned that MI kids aren't as exposed to the rest of the FRC world outside of MI, and I completely agree. Soon, very few MI kids will recognize names like Wildstang, MORT, Exploding Bacon, etc.

The district format has many positives from a robot perspective, yes. More matches, more robot access, more benefit to building a strong "winner" robot than a GP helper bot. But it's not a model that solves all problems, and it's not a model that works everywhere. I see it working in CA & MI, Florida maybe, and New England if you include all of the states and let outsiders "opt-in." One problem with districts is that you can't "Opt-Out." Tech Fusion was lucky because they're physically half-Ohio, but for the rest of MI teams, it would cost $11,000 to attend one competition if you didn't want to be part of MI. This puts teams in border areas like the UP at a disadvantage, because it may be easier for them to attend MN or WI regionals than MI districts. It also inconveniences border teams on the other side, that are forced to go to a regional, when there are two districts physically closer, but behind the Steel Curtain.

I think a great advantage that I had as a student in FRC is the ability to go to Midwest and Epcot and see all of the teams from different cultures that you don't see with a homogeneous population. It gives you different perspectives, seeing how different areas of the country handle the engineering challenges. I've heard more than once how some people miss how the MI teams, the "West Coast Offense" of FIRST, come into a Midwest or Pitts or FLR, kick butt, and inspire their own teams to be more "Michigan." There's also an indescribable professionalism that I see with regionals that you miss out if you're stuck behind the Steel Curtain.

I agree that some things, like the crating procedures and the all-Thursday practice, are archaic, but the main benefit I see of the district format is that it has forced the FRC to compete with it. You see that this year with Thurs Quals next week, the pilot bagging at Pitts and KC, and faster match turnaround at regionals this year, leading to more matches. I think if we maintain the current status-quo, with an "opt-in/opt-out" clause, the two competitions FRC and FiM can feed off of each other and benefit each other by forcing the other to innovate and push the envelope.