Conflict with Mentor

[EricH]

I do see an issue here.

It's not that the student was replaced. That's a mentor's call.

It's who the student was replaced with.

One of the presenters was the new person I mentioned. She has never shown up at a meeting, knows very little about the team, or what we've done, and, hasn't shown up since. In fact, she wasn't at the second day of competition either.

Somebody who shows up at exactly one breakout meeting and and one day of an event, and isn't part of the team before then should not be treated as a member of the team for the presentation. This is made worse when said person, who knows little to nothing about the team, replaces one of the persons who wrote the RCA essay, who knows more and can expand on the presentation if asked.

I also see that a mentor is having an offsite activity for students who want to present the RCA. I don't see a problem with that. I think that's a good thing, actually. I also don't see that there's a problem with saying that if you aren't there, you can't present (unless extenuating circumstances are not accounted for).

Where I do see an issue is the refusal of reverse transportation, and then saying, "If you're not there, you can't present." In this case, that was worked around quite well. I'd suggest making the latter statement first.

I also see the timing as an issue. 2 days after this happens, the morning of the presentation, is when the announcement is made. Bad call. If the mentor was going to pull the OP off the presenters, it should have been done at least the day before, if at all possible.

What I would suggest: Talk to another mentor or two about this. Explain how you felt, etc. Then ask them to come with you to talk to (not confront) the mentor who was in charge of the RCA submission. Find out what his reasons were, and let the mentors explain why it's a bad idea to do that if they feel that it is necessary to do so. (Note: it may be a good idea to have a mentor--preferably the lead mentor--who hasn't heard either side to moderate if needed.)

In addition to the structure suggestions above, of course. Maybe set a ground rule that any student who wants to do certain tasks (drive, present, pit crew, you get the picture) has to have been at [a reasonable minimum number of] meetings in order to be considered, barring extenuating circumstances. Having that alone in the team handbook could save a lot of frustration in the future.

[sanddrag]

Makes me remember this spotlight quote:

Originally Posted by Madison

While one student may not be of much value to the team, do we ever stop to think about how much value the team may be to that student?

Perhaps that is what is happening here.

[JGecko146]

As a mentor (I was also a student on a team many years ago), I will agree that our job is very difficult and we sometimes have to make the unpopular decisions. However, I personally favor commitment to the team, dedication to the program and a willingness to learn above almost everything else. I understand your frustration in having someone chosen to present who seems to have (I don’t know the situation) put in far less effort than you. I feel that you have to earn positions on the team, i.e. presenter, driver, human player, captain, etc. You do this through hard work and dedication.

I would suggest the following. Speak to another mentor on the team, someone you feel comfortable with. Leave your ego at the door and don’t use words like entitled. Instead talk about how it made you feel (I know, insert corny psychiatrist jokes here) and how can all of you work on the team to ensure future success. I really like team handbooks. Having everything in black and white makes things a lot easier. I do have to caution you that just because you did not see this other person much doesn’t mean they didn’t help the team. We had two students last who did the whole animation on their own and we didn’t see them until the end.

Lastly, I know this was a hard blow. But please don’t let this one negative experience cloud your whole FIRST experience. In any team environment there may be problems or even hurt feelings. When you look back in a year or two, don’t focus on this moment but rather the awesome experience of being on a FIRST team and your happy memories of it.

Best of luck,
JGecko146

[Kimmeh]

The mentor is our lead mentor, which is where part of the problem is. Due to work, he has made very few meetings which I don't hold against him, as work does come first. However, this has made it very hard for him to lead the team as we have gone up to two weeks without hearing from him.

A different mentor (teacher/coach) worked with the awards team throughout the year, both before and during build season. He is also the "middle-man" between students and mentors. He was the first person I went to, to have this resolved. While I don't remember specifics of the conversation, I remember feeling like the issue was dismissed with a comment along the lines of "these things happen." Granted, they do, and I would be less frustrated if it was handled differently.

I agree that I'm not entitled to present, and I should have worded that differently. However, it is highly frustrating, and I would like an explanation. The change was made last minute, without any discussion with the rest of the team. None of the mentors even knew until after the presentation. Also, I wasn't told I wouldn't be presenting by the mentor, which is where a large part of my frustration comes from. I was in the pits of the rookie team we mentor, when I received a text from one of the presenters saying responding that she couldn't come help me as she was about to go present. In other words, I was "told" I wasn't presenting, by not being told at all.

It's been hard for our team to get a general consensus on anything like a handbook, which is something I'd love to have. We're a "young" team - out of 14 students, we have 1 sophomore, and 3 seniors, the rest of the team are either freshmen or 8th graders, with 3 of them younger than that. In addition, for over half of them, this is their rookie year. Now, more than ever, I'm going to push for the team to commit to this so that something like this cannot happen again.

I appreciate everyone's input, and I am trying to approach this as tactfully and professionally as possible. I wanted to avoid an impulsive discussion where I might say things that are impulsive or inappropriate and would cause problems rather than resolve them, hence waiting.

Thank you.

And for those wondering, I chose to post it here over FAHA because here, I am more accountable to what is being said, and I won't be tempted to say things that perhaps shouldn't be said.

[EricH]

Ah, the old lack of communication...

I think that if you talk to the other mentors and explain that 1) the student replacing you was not part of the team until the meeting where the presentation was worked on and 2) there was a severe communication breakdown where you weren't told that you weren't presenting, until someone said that they were presenting, you might get one or two that are willing to go in and have a sit-down meeting with the mentor in question.

What you want to know is: 1) Why were you not informed? 2) Why was the change made? In that order, might I add. Also use that meeting to get mentors to support the adoption of a team handbook, written by the team in the time left this year.

The lack of communication is the #1 worst problem a team can have. (Trust me, I've been on a team that had a major communications breakdown. It wasn't pretty.) When you do a handbook (and I'd recommend using your senior status to your advantage here, to get one done), you'll want to address communication guidelines--official channels, timeliness, emergency, etc.--as well as general team rules on meetings, participation, and all the other stuff that you'll find in the various handbooks posted on CD or on the FIRST site.

[Kimmeh]

Communication as also been an issue on the team for as long as I can remember and we've yet to find a way to over come it. I've spent the last few hours looking though team handbooks, and am compiling a list of what I'd like ours to cover. I know many of the mentors would be willing to work on this, but I worry about the willingness of the students. I think they some of them fail to see that the team is for them and they should take the opportunity to speak up so that the team is run the way they want it.

I love FIRST and all that it has to offer. It opens up so many more doors than the average high school activity, and it's something you can continue to do after high school. That is why I want to resolve this.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Kimmeh

Communication as also been an issue on the team for as long as I can remember and we've yet to find a way to over come it. I've spent the last few hours looking though team handbooks, and am compiling a list of what I'd like ours to cover. I know many of the mentors would be willing to work on this, but I worry about the willingness of the students. I think they some of them fail to see that the team is for them and they should take the opportunity to speak up so that the team is run the way they want it.

Our team uses a Google Group for most of our communication. There are certainly features we would like that a Google Group cannot provide, but for the ease of setup it's pretty difficult to beat it.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Kimmeh

Communication as also been an issue on the team for as long as I can remember and we've yet to find a way to over come it. I've spent the last few hours looking though team handbooks, and am compiling a list of what I'd like ours to cover. I know many of the mentors would be willing to work on this, but I worry about the willingness of the students. I think they some of them fail to see that the team is for them and they should take the opportunity to speak up so that the team is run the way they want it.

I love FIRST and all that it has to offer. It opens up so many more doors than the average high school activity, and it's something you can continue to do after high school. That is why I want to resolve this.

Kimberly, give Chelsea a call. It really sounds like what you need to do is set up a student governance committee, as others have said. Here's another point: your roles and responsibilities should be laid out at the start of the year, and students should be heading each group and making decisions, with the INPUT of the mentors, but not the dictatorship of the mentors.

Without a set process in place before these types of conflicts occur, it's very difficult to reach a amicable and fair resolution because everyone ends up having a conflict of interest.

Lacking a set process, you should have a 'Head Mentor' whose responsibility it is to solve disputes. In the absence of THAT, or should the Head Mentor be the one causing the issues, you really need to have that governance board to fall back on to help resolve the issue.

Checks and balances, with student leadership and responsibility. It's the key to a team running well. Without it, it's all emotion and that never ends up in a good place.

Lastly, I'd like to say that all of this is easy to say, but very very hard to do. It took a very dedicated group of our students to get together and do it after 5 years, and if you asked them every one would say that our bylaws already need changes. You need a group of people who believe it's the right way to do things, and they need the drive to get it done. Think 1776 (the year, not the team).

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Kimmeh

It's been hard for our team to get a general consensus on anything like a handbook, which is something I'd love to have. We're a "young" team - out of 14 students, we have 1 sophomore, and 3 seniors, the rest of the team are either freshmen or 8th graders, with 3 of them younger than that. In addition, for over half of them, this is their rookie year. Now, more than ever, I'm going to push for the team to commit to this so that something like this cannot happen again.

Don't let being a young team stop you. We started our handbook the summer after our second year... and everyone on the team was either new (joined for our summer program) or had only been there the previous year - no one from the first year remained as student members. The two who really got the handbook going were dedicated members who had just graduated (one had been with the team both years, the other only the second year). So being a young team can't hurt. Additionally, that summer and the following school year, I believe we only had one senior on the team.

From your brief description of the mentor organization on the team, it sounds like it could stand to have a section in the handbook. The lead mentor's job isn't to make all the decisions for the team, despite the power trip some people may be on. They are supposed to ensure the smooth functioning of the team as a whole. In this situation, I would have expected the mentor/teacher/coach who worked with the awards team throughout the year to be the one "responsible" for everything dealing with the chairman's presentation - the lead mentor would only get involved if really needed (for example, the students want to meet and get feedback, but the coach wasn't available). Further, without being a very active part of the team, I'm not sure how the lead mentor can really fulfill his responsibilities - yeah, work comes first, but being out of communication for 2 weeks during a 6 week build season is a serious indication that it might be time to pass the responsibilities to someone else and let him take a smaller role on the team.

[dancingfool]

As a student mentor to this team, I have to bring out a few misrepresentations.

Presenters were not identified until the night before (I'm talking like midnight) they were actually going to present, due to poor organization of the project. With the help of the new student, who put in A LOT of time with myself to learn about the process of chairman's and the team. The presentation was completed, visual display was completed, and oral presentation was created, outlined, prepared and practiced throughly by both myself, the lead mentor and other team members including the "new" student.
Just because a team member was not physically at your build site and working on the robot does not mean that they were new and/or not involved, so please, next time make sure you have all of your information before making accusations. I agree dirty laundry should not be aired, I suggest that you talk to the mentor in a professional manner if this is still bothering you.

Also, this mentor was not absent for 2 weeks, this is a gross inflation. He was always either in contact or reachable with a response within at most, an hour. Reguardless, Chief Delphi is NOT the place for this.

[waialua359]

Sounds to me that both sides are true to their own perspectives and that a lack of communication occurred here.
To be honest, this shouldnt be posted here as its not imperative for the CD community to give you solutions/suggestions. But rather, the best way to resolve it is to talk to your mentor directly.
Every team has issues here/there and the best way we resolve our own challenges are discussions and clear communication amongst all members.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by dancingfool

Chief Delphi is NOT the place for this.

Originally Posted by waialua359

To be honest, this shouldnt be posted here as its not imperative for the CD community to give you solutions/suggestions.

At first glance, I can see how people might think this. But please re-read the OP. She was clearly giving a little bit of background information from her viewpoint and asking for advice. At first read, I thought this was the usual "dirty laundry" post...but it really isn't. It becomes clear when you ask what the dirty laundry was? There wasn't any being aired. It was simply advice for an appropriate response. She wasn't bashing anyone really. Yes, she made a few erroneous observations. But she wasn't doing it in the tone that leads to something being really negative. I don't believe her post was at all negative towards her team, the student, or really the mentor. She was very professional about it.

A final note: Don's post is an example of why this thread belongs here. That is honestly some of the best advice I've read here in weeks. It is something I still struggle with, but is very wise. If for nothing else, this thread belongs here because it brings out posts like that. Afterall, if we aren't here for some wisdom...what are we here for?

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by dancingfool

Just because a team member was not physically at your build site and working on the robot does not mean that they were new and/or not involved, so please, next time make sure you have all of your information before making accusations.

After following this thread, I was under the impression that Kimmeh spent time in places other than the shop, primarily on chairman's. I understand that there are more components to a team, but that is an unfair line to throw at someone in her position, especially because its seems to not apply.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by JesseK

These sound like the types of conflicts that occur between professional engineers and Program Managers. The only thing you're 'entitled' to is an explanation

The only reason you would want an explanation is so that you do not make the same mistake again in the future.

Originally Posted by thefro526

I'd suggest sitting down with the mentor in question with at least one other Adult present and discussing your issues. Stay very polite and very impartial and you should get the answer you're looking for, but it may not be what you want to hear.

Originally Posted by eagle33199

I'm not sure how the lead mentor can really fulfill his responsibilities - yeah, work comes first, but being out of communication for 2 weeks during a 6 week build season is a serious indication that it might be time to pass the responsibilities to someone else and let him take a smaller role on the team.

These quotes echo my thoughts exactly.

When I have an issue with a program manager (good call Jesse) I know I'm at least entitled to an explanation. I approach it very openly, and make it perfectly clear that I'm not looking to blame or question the decision, instead my real intention is to get information along the lines of what thefro526 wrote - and I ask them to not mince words or dance around the topic: Say what needs to be said, brutal it may be.

(And, in some cases, it WAS brutal. And I did NOT like hearing it. But further honest reflection showed that it was true. And knowing 'my breath stinks' has helped me far more than any thanks and praise I've ever received.)

While the mentor is delivering their opinion/explanation.whatever, don't say anything (unless you didn't understand a word, then ask for a repeat). Do not interrupt, do not defend yourself - just listen. After they are done, be sure to thank them for their honest feedback, and close the books. Arguing or defending is not how to accept feedback. Someone who shares their opinion cannot be wrong - their opinion is their opinion.

Good luck, I hope you learn something for all this heartache.

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by dancingfool

. Reguardless, Chief Delphi is NOT the place for this.

If I may say so...

If anything, I feel that her going to people outside of the team was the smart thing to do. I have had some issues in the past with people on my team. Instead of coming to other FIRST members for advice in a calm fashion for some simple advice like she did, I aired my Dirty Laundry all around the team and did nothing to fix my problem. It didn't turn out well and I have some not so good relations with the said team member as well as many other because of my poor choices.

So there is nothing wrong with her coming to Chief Delphi for Advice. If anything she did the right thing to avoid causing long lasting Hard Feelings with the involved people in her problem