I don't think being a rookie team has any effect on the programmers

[FRC4ME]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

True, but I was a rookie this year, I had no problem learning... Just Look at the $@#$@#$@#$@# API and documents... How is that hard? If you have ANY programming experience, you can easily use the API, its so well named and stuff, I just asked what the things were connected to and Bam, its in the API... People don't realize how important reading documents and the API is... Also the mentors had a "Let all the students do all the work and just assist them" type of mentality, I can say they were great, but they did not needed to help me directly with coding. Just some of my questions on technology

While I once again wouldn't have said it using your words, this post brings up a good point. At least WPILib is well-documented. Many of the veteran team SDKs are not.

Originally Posted by HashemReza

Obviously, you're going to need to show that new member of the community how to do it (adequately) at least once, and then let them find out through experience.

Of course you need to show them how to do it once. What concerns me about many of the veteran frameworks going around is that they take a "black box" strategy; rather than showing rookies how to do it, they try to remove the need for a rookie to learn how to do it. That, IMO, is a poor strategy. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding how many of the SDKs work; I haven't personally used any of them but have only read their project description pages.

[davidthefat]

I do not see how a rookie team can "graduate" from the rookie status using development kits released by veteran teams... You are just keeping them there pretty much, they don't get the same experience and they need it too.

[kamocat]

Originally Posted by DavidTheFat

I do not see how a rookie team can "graduate" from the rookie status using development kits released by veteran teams... You are just keeping them there pretty much, they don't get the same experience and they need it too.

You could take that same argument to say they shouldn't be programming (LabVIEW) at all if they don't know what a subVI is.

Even more so, that how Autonomous Independent is called is by a reference somewhere you wouldn't normally look.
I talked to a programmer at a regional who used Autonomous Iterative as his Autonomous Independent because he didn't see where Autonomous Independent was called in Robot Main.

[45Auto]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Its mostly for those rookie teams I am assuming?

I would think that it would be more for the established teams that seem to have difficulties in autonomous. The vast majority of true rookie teams (rookie mentors and students) won't have the knowledge that it's there to take advantage of it. Take your team for example, your rookie year was 2001, and your autonomous barely works (manages to kick one ball out of three when you KNOW where the balls are and there's no defenders to bother you) 9 years later. An autonomous framework would allow you hopefully program a competitive autonomous mode by bypassing the development problems that many students don't even realize are there.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

I would think that it would be more for the established teams that seem to have difficulties in autonomous. The vast majority of true rookie teams (rookie mentors and students) won't have the knowledge that it's there to take advantage of it. Take your team for example, your rookie year was 2001, and your autonomous barely works (manages to kick one ball out of three when you KNOW where the balls are and there's no defenders to bother you) 9 years later. An autonomous framework would allow you hopefully program a competitive autonomous mode by bypassing the development problems that many students don't even realize are there.

That is true, but Like I explained in my previous threads, I DGAFed this year, so I never used my knowledge to the fullest potential, I was just "Get it working" just the bare minimum... Also I was limited by the hardware, the kicker was only capable of kicking like 15 feet, thats 1 bump, and was no aiming the ball at all and the goal was to just kick 1 ball

[Radical Pi]

Also, it is technically illegal to not make these resources available to the rookie teams if you make it in the offseason and intend to use it on your robot

[Al3+]

Originally Posted by FRC4ME

While I once again wouldn't have said it using your words, this post brings up a good point. At least WPILib is well-documented. Many of the veteran team SDKs are not.



Of course you need to show them how to do it once. What concerns me about many of the veteran frameworks going around is that they take a "black box" strategy; rather than showing rookies how to do it, they try to remove the need for a rookie to learn how to do it. That, IMO, is a poor strategy. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding how many of the SDKs work; I haven't personally used any of them but have only read their project description pages.

I actually agree. All of the functionality in WPILib is there in the help docs, and the software comes with lots of example code (even if not all of it works). Providing more examples is a lot more helpful in the long run than a "black box" SDK would be in terms of making a team a "veteran" in terms of programming.

That said I don't really think one can expect the same from every rookie team as from a strong established one.

[davidthefat]

Also I would like to ask what makes a team reach a "veteran" status?

[HashemReza]

Originally Posted by FRC4ME

What concerns me about many of the veteran frameworks going around is that they take a "black box" strategy; rather than showing rookies how to do it, they try to remove the need for a rookie to learn how to do it.

If that is the case, then I completely understand your reservations. In fact, I share them.

There is a clear difference between what I am talking about with regards to the original Kit of Parts (which is what I thought the OP was originally talking about), and Rookies using intense frameworks put out by Vets.

If the OP was talking about veteran teams putting out those frameworks, then I apologize. I personally feel as though that's along the lines of cheating, unless someone takes the time to go through and understand the framework given. Actually, if a rookie coder is able to go through and understand a framework it could very well help them along in their learning process, causing them to ask more questions, and find more answers.

Originally Posted by sircedric4

What if the team has no one with any programming experience? What if they don't know what a do loop or an if-then statement is? What if they have no idea what an API is, or if they don't understand what a object oriented programming structure means?

In this case, I would completely understand the use of a framework. This is one of those subjects where it is difficult to come to a definite conclusion. There is a fine line between a resource allowing someone to compete, and being "too helpful" and staunching the learning process.

EDIT:

Also, to your question OP, I would define it as such: If you can consider a team sustainable from year to year, it is a veteran.