Open Apology To All:

[davidthefat]

I have been informed by several (not just one) member that does not appreciate my attitude/posting habits. I do make dogmatic and sometimes, even crass statements in a lot of my posts. That is just my personality, I like good discussions. In fact, in real life, I may even talk from the opposing view point to just for the fun of it, I just am like that. I am very opinionated, but that is good in my view. That shows individualism and I am not like sheep blindly following the crowd. In fact that has led me to make a big impact in my robotics team this year. Me being a rookie this year, no one expected me to be so very big mouthed. I did not know anyone in the club, may be just my teacher and a couple guys, but I was not afraid to speak my mind. I am sorry if you do not like my posting style and or my attitude, but I am not going to change. Sorry, I guess you have to deal with it then, it has done me more good than harm IMHO. I can be pretty blunt, but I try to use euphemism, but some things I just am passionate about.


Read my sig: Last line...

[sanddrag]

Don't worry David. I hope none of the comments you've received or experiences you've had discourage you from participating again. I know some people on these forums can be rather harsh! Just the fact that you're here on Chief Delphi means you're a dedicated member of your team, willing to learn more, and make a meaningful contribution to your team, all of us, and yourself. It seems to me you have a strong passion to really learn a lot and go far in FIRST Robotics and other projects. Remember, we all started somewhere. No one on this forum came into it an expert in everything (many of us didn't know much of anything at all). All of us were new once, and we have learned along the way. I hope we'll see you next year.

[johnr]

I did that whole take the other side of the question thing to just get people talking too. Fun isn't? The only thing i would tell you is to put that last line in your sig in red so people will see it.

[Steve W]

David, I will admit to not having read your posts. I will after this Championship rush is over. From one who likes to "discuss" or "debate" topics let me say that it is good to look from different perspectives. Some say thinking outside of the box. It is always good to bring different ideas and invoke the thinking process. This is a good thing to have.

HOWEVER. This has caused me a lot of grief over the years. I have had some problems with friends, family, fellow workers and bosses not to mention team mates. One of my old bosses (who has since passed away) took me aside and had a big heart to heart talk. He reassured me that I have/had a lot of valid points to make. My problem was my presentation. He explained some small but important rules to follow when talking with others and trying to get my ideas through. You see, I had caused people to shut me out because of the way I am/was.

Rule 1: Listen to others point of views. Do not interrupt or ask questions until they have finished.
Rule 2: State your points clearly and concisely and give reasoning behind your ideas.
Rule 3: Do not say "that is a bad idea" or "are you stupid?". If you feel that you have a better idea use phrases like "have you considered?" or ""good thoughts, do you feel by adding/changing XXXX that it might make it better?"
Rule 4: When you are finished, sit back and let others have their say and or discussion. Defending all that you have said reverts people back to ignoring your points.

Have I mastered this you ask? Just ask my team or those on CD. They will tell you NO. Have I improved over the last 10 years, you bet but I still have a long way to go.

I am old and they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I disagree. It may take a lot more swats to the nose but we can learn. Take it from someone who knows. Try changing when you are young and things will be a lot easier down the road. Oh, BTW have fun while doing it!

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

I have been informed by several (not just one) member that does not appreciate my attitude/posting habits. I do make dogmatic and sometimes, even crass statements in a lot of my posts. That is just my personality, I like good discussions. In fact, in real life, I may even talk from the opposing view point to just for the fun of it, I just am like that. I am very opinionated, but that is good in my view. That shows individualism and I am not like sheep blindly following the crowd. In fact that has led me to make a big impact in my robotics team this year. Me being a rookie this year, no one expected me to be so very big mouthed. I did not know anyone in the club, may be just my teacher and a couple guys, but I was not afraid to speak my mind. I am sorry if you do not like my posting style and or my attitude, but I am not going to change. Sorry, I guess you have to deal with it then, it has done me more good than harm IMHO. I can be pretty blunt, but I try to use euphemism, but some things I just am passionate about.

David,
I tried to single out a line or two in your post to quote but it is just too full of opinion and comment to narrow it down. The statements that I've underlined are the ones that really stand out to me, staying within the context of the whole post.

Having strong opinions and stating them, doesn't separate you from the crowd automatically and it doesn't necessarily show individualism. Not in Chief Delphi. Sometimes, you can be in a crowd of strong opinions and everyone is blasting them - over each other or at each other. (We've had a lot of that going on this spring.) It muddles and lumps everything together - it doesn't separate. What can separate you from the crowd and allow you to shine as an individual - if that is your goal - is your careful thinking and how you express it. What will also reflect well on you, is your thoughtful selection of words and how well you craft your posts. If your statements are crass or dogmatic, then you are not strengthening your position but rather, boxing yourself in, in a manner of speaking.

Many of the people here in Chief Delphi have a passion about FIRST. The programs that we are involved in have value and have introduced opportunities and challenges that have enriched lives and broadened horizons. Our involvement has deepened the awareness of the many many possibilities in education and in careers - as well as in our personal lives. The funny thing about that is - the more we become aware and learn, the more we become aware that there is more to learn and understand. That can create a place of humility where true growth can develop and mature. It is a place of inspiration.

Talking from an opposing view just for the fun of it - if done with the same careful thinking and selection of words - shows much more than talking from an opposing view just for the fun of it. It shows intelligence and the ability to think and approach the problem from different angles. It can also show objectivity. Someone who is a master of taking a different view and presenting it very well, creating opportunities for thinking to occur - is Dave Lavery. He is a master of breaking out of the noise and chatter in CD as everyone tumbles down a reckless road of opinion with very few facts and little clarity. He has been known to stop us all dead in our tracks again and again. How? With his careful thinking and choice of words. You can do searches for Dave Lavery's posts in CD. Where he really shines is when he offers insight and perspective into a discussion. He is also the master of never really letting the reader know his true personal opinion about the topic, because he can offer an opposing or different view very well.

If you feel that you will not change - as a first year member on a team and here in CD - then you will feel more loneliness than you deserve. Others will be changing around you. It is a natural part of the process and an amazing one. I hope that you do change - naturally. And that you grow and develop as a member of the team and here in Chief Delphi.

Jane

[IKE]

David,
This is not an attack. I think you are a strong enough person for this thread to provide some good feedback that should be valuable to the community.

Having strong opinions and conviction are great things. Just don't let the pride of individualism blind you.

There is a famous saying that "Reasonable men will confrom to thier environment, but unreasonable men with try to confrom their environment to them. Because of this, the world can only be changed by unreasonable men." This is absolutely true that many strong willed individualists have changed the world (Ford, Edison, JP Morgan,...). Many individualists sight this as an excuse to unreasonable. Notice that the quote didn't say that unreasonable men would change the world for the better.
Example:
Two men had dreams of changing the world in a way that could forever end racism. The one man's dream was of people working together in harmony. The other was to create a master race (1 of many goals) and irradicate those that stood in his way. Both of these men forever changed the World.

Playing the role of devil's advocate is a very good role to play. It can help explore boundary scenarios and lead to new roads of discovery. Please continue to do this. There are more effective ways of doing it though without alienating others.

For instance: In your post that you think it is wrong for some of the pre-coded software.
"Ok I have not shown much enthusiasm about the autonomous kit stuff. Its mostly for those rookie teams I am assuming? Well I am against that whole idea, kind of showing pity towards them... I may sound evil right now, but just because they are a rookie team, that does not mean that they can't compete with he veterans... IDK where this idea came from, but I don't like the kit idea that people are doing. This is not some government run multi billion dollar project... Software pretty much costs $0 for us, its all electrical and mechanic that gobble up the money, I don't get how being under funded rookie has ANYTHING to do with programming... Yea this challenge was for individual teams doing it by themselves, the prize is vanity and pride..."

This attacks the idea of pre-made software modules, and assumes they were made for Rookies. A different way of opening the same discussion could have been:

"Ok I have not shown much enthusiasm about the autonomous kit stuff. I am suprised that a Robotics competition has pre-made modules that are plug and play. Does anyone know why these exist? I don't understand how giving solutions out improves teams abilities. Software is essentially free from a monetary standpoint so I did understand why teams "need" this to be given. I am a rookie this year and was able to make things work, so this can't be with regards to rookie status. Giving someone the answer undermines their opportunity to learn and grow and thus build self-pride. Can someone enlighten me as to the "need" for these pre-fab modules?" (By the way, this is a great topic to discuss and should be continually renewed. It is a branch of the larger subject of Kit solutions versus home grown designs. Why are their Kit solutions (EE, programming, and mechanical), and how "good" should those solutions be.)

The above example should convey the same points you were going for, but in a more inviting and open manor. If you truly want discussion, you need to invite others to discuss, and not just state opinions as facts.

See some of Dr. Joe's posts of recent as shining examples of how to bring up controversial topics within the world of FIRST (FiM vs Regional, Intentionally doing a particular strategy at a lower event to learn how to win a larger event, ...). Notice how he asks more questions initially, and then states opinions once the discussion is started.

************************************************** *
"I am sorry if you do not like my posting style and or my attitude, but I am not going to change. Sorry, I guess you have to deal with it then, it has done me more good than harm IMHO."

Technically this is not an apology as much as it is a rationalization of your position. Posting your position is a good thing as it helps others understand that your beliefs should not directly reflect upon your team, but an apology technically should show some remorse for a behaviour that with hindsight you would have done differently or at least feel bad about.
As another example:
"I am really sorry if I have offended others. That was not my intent. Blah blah blah... In the future, I intend to still express my viewpoints with conviction, but I will try to work on tone and.... with the intent of not being as offensive."

Again, this isn't meant as an attack, but more as an opportunity to improve communication. Your apology/position statement is a very brave action that helps us understand you a bit more. This bravery is why I think you have the strength of character to handle a post like mine.

IKE

[Al Skierkiewicz]

David,
There is some great advice in this thread. Read and heed what you see. A teacher once pointed out that when two people meet (which is what we are doing in a dialog here), both are forever changed. It is up to you to make that change a good one or a bad one. A kind word is like a smile, it can change the whole day.
Another instructor lived by this...
I met a man with a dollar and we exchanged dollars. We each left with a dollar. I met a man with an idea, we exchanged ideas. We each left with two ideas.
I also have an idea. When I meet a person for the first time, I have a measure of respect that I will reserve for them. Their actions after that first meeting will add to or detract from that initial measure of respect. It is up to them, not me. I have read a few of your posts and this one adds to your respect bank. Not for what you said but that your post signifies you have become aware of what others find in you. That is a huge step. Keep growing, learn something new everyday.

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

dogmatic and sometimes, even crass
I am very opinionated
shows individualism
so very big mouthed
not afraid to speak my mind
I just am passionate

Yes, you seem to be all those -- I like you...

Edit: I must say though, these posts seem totally pointless...

"Balls to the wall, go for it, no regrets..."

"Jack Of All Trades, be the Chuck Norris of robots, thats your ultimate goal, since you are autonomous, you really can't communicate with your team, so you have to kick $@#$@#$@# your self"

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by IKE

David,
************************************************** *
"I am sorry if you do not like my posting style and or my attitude, but I am not going to change. Sorry, I guess you have to deal with it then, it has done me more good than harm IMHO."

Technically this is not an apology as much as it is a rationalization of your position. Posting your position is a good thing as it helps others understand that your beliefs should not directly reflect upon your team, but an apology technically should show some remorse for a behaviour that with hindsight you would have done differently or at least feel bad about.
As another example:
"I am really sorry if I have offended others. That was not my intent. Blah blah blah... In the future, I intend to still express my viewpoints with conviction, but I will try to work on tone and.... with the intent of not being as offensive."

Again, this isn't meant as an attack, but more as an opportunity to improve communication. Your apology/position statement is a very brave action that helps us understand you a bit more. This bravery is why I think you have the strength of character to handle a post like mine.

IKE

That is true, well I am not the best person when it comes to putting stuff in right words, I can not promise that, but I will try...


Also I will try to be more openminded, this statement requires me to be more openminded than I am to even be more openminded. If you understand what I mean

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

I am sorry if you do not like my posting style and or my attitude, but I am not going to change. Sorry, I guess you have to deal with it then, it has done me more good than harm IMHO.

While I don't know anything about your posting habits or whatnot, if your intention was to apologize you're not really doing that good of a job of it.

"I am sorry if you don't like my posting style"? This is basically saying "Sorry that there's something wrong with you that makes it so you can't accept someone like me." That's not an apology, that's passive-aggressive blame placement. The word "Sorry" does not an apology make.

I am sorry if you don't like this post but if you feel there is something wrong with your behavior, that is not how you apologize. Clearly you don't, though. While I'm not saying your behavior is in the wrong (I wouldn't know), you're not owning up and taking responsibility for it with this thread, you're just telling all of us that we're wrong for reacting in this way.

[DonRotolo]

Chrisisme beat me to it

My thought after reading your post was "Gee, not much of an apology. More like a rationalization."

But OK, it's all good.

Being obstreperous just for its own sake won't serve you well in life.

There are always several ways to say something; if you are clever you'll find one way where the other person doesn't find any negatives.

Or, put another way: When delivering a message, it's always easier to deliver it in a way that will hurt someone's feelings than to deliver it in a way that does not hurt them.

None of these kinds of kind and gracious behaviors will make people think less of you.

[EricVanWyk]

I'll be brutally honest: I stopped reading your posts, I found them uninteresting and valueless. After reading your anti-apology, I do not intend to begin reading them again. ((However, I have read the thread up to this point in its entirety many times))

I've made a rather harsh statement, so please allow me give my definition of worth.

I love Chief Delphi. It allows me to constantly expand and refresh my understanding of electronics, mechanics, culture, pedagogy, control theory and more. I define the value of any post by its contribution to either someone else's or my own expansion of understanding. Conversely, a post can have a negative value if it reduces that understanding.

Some of this value is cut and dry: An explanation of PID, for example. Some of it is much more subtle: The self confidence someone gets from communicating on a peer level with some brilliant / powerful minds. In any case, the value requires bi-directional communication.

A number of your posts have been extremely negative on the "subtle value" scale. What you think is playful devil's advocacy loses a lot in the translation to text, and comes off as boorish, not clever. If I were a sophomore in high school and received one of these replies, I'd likely be put off from posting again. That is not acceptable.

The people who have been around here for a while have a natural control for this - they lose interest in you. This hurts you.



Moving forward, you need to identify a few people whose strengths align with your weaknesses. I'd recommend JaneYoung for manners, GregMcCaskle for balanced viewpoints, Al Skierkiewicz for relaying fact in an accessible and useful form, and KingOf1337 for showcasing cool ideas. My personal list also includes Squirrel, MarkMcLeod, DonRotollo, etc.

[Akash Rastogi]

Reading your posts I've applauded your ability to learn quickly from the first post/thread you put up.

However, what works for YOU when you speak of learning about programming and picking something up quickly, does NOT work for others. Consistent criticism of something like your "rookies should be able to program thread" is just insulting to read because many times your posts just come across as rude and immodest.

This was not an apology, nor do you seem to care about rectifying your attitude, which is in my opinion, terrible for a productive forum. "I will not change my ways" is a statement of arrogance, not individualism.

[gvarndell]

Oh jeesh, it's worse than pointless posts.

After reading these other replies I went through some more of your posts.
I had stopped reading the threads you haunt because you pop off wild ideas like a popcorn machine and it drives me crazy (but I still admired your enthusiasm).

Somewhere along the line, you got too cocky, mean even.

[synth3tk]

I know people hate to be ragged on (or "flamed" in the internet world), so I won't make too long a post here. I would like to urge you to really take to heart some of the advice given in this thread by the other members. A few of these post authors are not only members of ChiefDelphi who are well-established, but leaders, mentors, or wise students of very successful teams (not just in the Win/Loss sense).