"Strategic" Alliance selection

[Leav]

This is obviously a delicate matter so please forgive me if this comes across as rude or not in line with the spirit of FIRST. I won't beat around the bush here, i'd just like a primer on FIRST etiquette with regards to "Strategic" alliance selections at champs.

We've only been to the championship once before (Israeli RAS in 2008), and were too dazed to understand what was going on..

So, to the point:

1. If someone is going to select you, will they talk to you and set it in stone? (so that you can tell others to not plan on you etc.)
2. say TeamA is seeded below you and would like to select TeamB, would they (TeamA, TeamB or both) approach you and ask you not to select TeamB?
3. Is it general practice to honor such a request if it is made?

I'll stick my neck out and say my honest opinion: I don't think a request like #2 is something that should be acceptable, and in that light I would think that honoring such a request would be pretty naive, and would really gut the seeding point system of it's meaning.

Knowing what the general FIRST etiquette suggests would be insightful for a foreign team

(Manners in a different country are always important!)

Thanks for your help, and hopefully this doesn't rub anyone the wrong way.
-Leav

[Basel A]

By my experience (which is by no means extensive), usually only the first or second seeds will talk to their first selections, and it will often only be near the end of qualifying on Saturday. In most cases, a team will honor that request, but that's because it's the #1 or #2 seeded team! Otherwise, I think a team would be understanding if you wanted to seek other possibilities.

[ATannahill]

This is what I think.

If you want to break up any potential alliance, go for it. If you are seated above teamA and teamB (both in top 8) go ahead and chose teamB, they can accept or deny, either way you prevented them from pairing up.

I don't know if they will ask you not to pick TeamB, but if they do politely tell them that that is not within your strategy. It is your right as an alliance captain to pick any team you want for any reason.

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by Leav

So, to the point:

1. If someone is going to select you, will they talk to you and set it in stone? (so that you can tell others to not plan on you etc.)
2. say TeamA is seeded below you and would like to select TeamB, would they (TeamA, TeamB or both) approach you and ask you not to select TeamB?
3. Is it general practice to honor such a request if it is made?

1. Generally if someone is going to select you, they come and talk to your team. For example, at Palmetto, we had three teams that were going to pick us if we were around to be picked. Just turns out that the first seed alliance took us first. Nothing is really set in stone, but it helps to know if you're going to be picked or not.

2. I haven't heard of that happening, and I don't think that's a very courteous move. That's like "We want to win, but I don't think we can do that with you guys, so don't pick us." It's extremely disrespectful and a bit hurtful.

3. Since I've never seen this come up, I don't know how much of an issue it will be, but if someone had the audacity to make the request, I wouldn't pick either team simply because I don't want to end up picking TeamB and then TeamB be grumpy throughout the finals.

[Andrew Schreiber]

My personal opinion, #1 seed takes whoever they want. If you want to work with Team A you better seed high enough to ensure you get them. Some teams may be cool with your request but many will ignore it.

Some people will talk to you ahead of time about selecting you. More often it is the other way around, teams ask you to select them. The former is logical, the latter is just irritating. Coming to us 1 hour before and giving us a 2 page flier about your robot saying, "You should pick us" should be avoided. If your robot showed what your flier says and it is what I need then I would pick you. If not, then I won't. There is a pretty good chance that the decision has already been made.

Now, there are times (GLR 2008) where the #1 seed will choose people they know will say no to them in order to lock them out of picking each other. Some people claim it is "un-GP" but it is a legal strategy.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Leav

So, to the point:

1. If someone is going to select you, will they talk to you and set it in stone? (so that you can tell others to not plan on you etc.)
2. say TeamA is seeded below you and would like to select TeamB, would they (TeamA, TeamB or both) approach you and ask you not to select TeamB?
3. Is it general practice to honor such a request if it is made?

1. The number 1 seed does for their first pick sometimes, and similar high ranked alliances may or may not. This discussion is by no means guaranteed, and is more common in years like 2007 where direct robot interaction required pre-pick variation.
2. I've never heard of this happening.
3. Absolutely not.

As for alliance selection, picking teams you know will reject you is a good strategy and should not be discouraged, since to the victor go the spoils. In my personal opinion, I'm not going to pick someone JUST because they'll reject me, but I'll pick someone that I would want on my alliance if they had an impulsive change of heart, even if I'm certain they won't. (I.e. if I'm 469, I'm not going to invite 469 clones 1, 2, and 3 just to get them to reject, but if 1114 said they'd reject me, I'd try to pick them)

[JABot67]

1. Yes, at least for the first and second picks. The #1 seeded team usually talks to the team it wants to pick as its first selection. Often, the two teams will compare their lists of teams and combine them so they both agree on the same list for their potential second picks. If the #2 team thinks it's obvious who the #1 team will pick, then the #2 team will talk to the team that it wants as its first selection, after the #1 seeded team has picked its first selection. The third ranked team can do the same thing, although it is a little bit more variable whether or not they will get the team they want.

2. Usually this does not occur, and sometimes it will be the complete opposite. An example is the Curie alliance selections in 2007. Team 1732 (#1) knew that 330 (#2) wanted to pick 1114 (#5 I think) so they chose 1114, who declined. That way, 330 could not pick them. Then they picked 330, who also declined, and then picked the #8 seeded 67, who accepted. By earning the #1 seed, 1732 had the ability to break up a potentially powerful alliance, and then created a powerful alliance of its own. It's all strategy.

3. I don't think I've ever heard of a team not choosing another team because a lower seeded team wanted to pick that team. It's not strategically sound.

[DonRotolo]

The responses given by ttldomination and Chris is me follow my own experiences. I have never heard of scenario #2 happening.

Hope to meet you in Atlanta: Will you be shaving your head like your WAI photo again? (It'll make you easier to find )

[XaulZan11]

Just one thought: if you are going to do #1, actually pick the team then. In the past a team has told us they would pick us if we were available. We were and they picked someone else. It all worked out in the end for both of us, but it still looks bad.

I would only tell a team that we are going to pick them if we are #1 seed. Too many things can change by the time its your time to make your selection.

[JackN]

When I am picking I try to get a feel for what everyone in the top 8 is thinking. At MSC when I was helping out team 70, we talked to 1918, 33, and 573 (all seeded ahead of us) to figure out what they were thinking for their selections. This allowed us to run through plans on who we would pick in both rounds so we can always be prepared for any situation that arises (even though we were prepared, we still were shocked having 910 available for our first pick).

Having a high seed allows you to ask any team you want even if someone below you wants to pick someone else. I have only heard of this happening once and it was a really unique situation.

If someone asked me to not pick a team, I would either ignore it or take it as a joke.

[Alex Dinsmoor]

Originally Posted by Leav

So, to the point:

1. If someone is going to select you, will they talk to you and set it in stone? (so that you can tell others to not plan on you etc.)
2. say TeamA is seeded below you and would like to select TeamB, would they (TeamA, TeamB or both) approach you and ask you not to select TeamB?
3. Is it general practice to honor such a request if it is made?

1. It all depends on the team, and if they talk to other teams. I know that I do not talk to other teams, unless I know that I'm in a situation in which I have access to the full field of robots. (1st or 2nd seed).

2. This to my knowledge has never happened, and never should happen.

3. A team does not have to honor a request if it is made. This is actually what happened last year; we requested assistance from another team, and they politely told us that they would decline our offer if it was made.

[Leav]

I appreciate the feedback and happy to see that GP has taken over common sense!

Hopefuly all this talk of alliance selections won't be just for fun!

-Leav

p.s.
I'm bringing a shaver, hopefully i'll find someone with the skill to do it!!

[Jack Jones]

say TeamA is seeded below you and would like to select TeamB, would they (TeamA, TeamB or both) approach you and ask you not to select TeamB?

That's too general a question for me to have a pat answer, so let's talk specifics:

Say the planets aligned on Curie in such a weird way that 2612, 469, and 1114 seeded 1st, 2nd, and 9th. We share two sponsors with 469 and one with 1114. We share parts with and cut parts for 469. We spend hours talking FiM/FIRST with them. We want them to win; we want to win; we want Curie to win; we want MI & GM & TARDEC teams to win.

In that specific case, with all those relationships, and since it ain't gona happen anyway. I think we'd hire Big Mike from MoTown to come down and make the rest of the captains an "offer they couldn't refuse" to leave 1114 for our second pick. Or would that only present yet another moral dilemma?

EDIT: Changed 1114 from 3rd to 9th seed to make the scenario possible.

[Leav]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

That's too general a question for me to have a pat answer, so let's talk specifics:

Say the planets aligned on Curie in such a weird way that 2612, 469, and 1114 seeded 1, 2, and 3. We share two sponsors with 469 and one with 1114. We share parts with and cut parts for 469. We spend hours talking FiM/FIRST with them. We want them to win; we want to win; we want Curie to win; we want MI & GM & TARDEC teams to win.

In that specific case, with all those relationships, and since it ain't gona happen anyway. I think we'd hire Big Mike from MoTown to come down and make the rest of the captains an "offer they couldn't refuse" to leave 1114 for our second pick. Or would that only present yet another moral dilemma?

I have to say that I appreciate this sort of thing... some alliances are just so beautiful you'd hate to break them up!
But this is a competition...

[Wayne TenBrink]

Here is another situation related to pre-selection etiquette. A high seeded team, not #1, might approach a higher seed team on Saturday morning with some version of the following question: "Do you plan to pick us? We're not asking you to, and its fine if you don't. However, we would like to know in advance so we can plan accordingly."