Curie 2010!

[fuzzy1718]

To quote a very influencial person in FIRST who shall not be named in case he implodes again, "We strive for excellence in everything we do. Even if that means doing something that others view as un-GP. It all depends on your perspective of the event." This quote is from a discussion about the scoring system this year. So if the same logic is applied here what is the differance between scoring against yourself and drawing penalties? If your goal is to give yourself the best shot at taking the division what is the differance? Talk about ethical dilemas this year.

On a side note I don't care either way in the current discussion, I see both sides and know that either way you lose. GP un-GP, it doesn't matter all that people remember at the end of the day is who was in what postition, not why or how they got their.

P.S. Travis Hoffman is my hero for founding the little guy party!

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

To quote a very influencial person in FIRST who shall not be named in case he implodes again, "We strive for excellence in everything we do. Even if that means doing something that others view as un-GP. It all depends on your perspective of the event." This quote is from a discussion about the scoring system this year. So if the same logic is applied here what is the differance between scoring against yourself and drawing penalties? If your goal is to give yourself the best shot at taking the division what is the differance? Talk about ethical dilemas this year.

Simple. Score against yourself and you help everyone. Throw every qual you have with 1114 and 469 and you're destroying everyone's seeding score.

I would hope that no one seriously equates this idea as just another way to strive for excellence. It's like saying if you poison the opposing football team, you're just trying to strive for excellence.

The end of that statement is the key. "Be excellent in everything you do and the results will just happen". Don't be so obsessed with the result that you throw out FIRST's core values.

[Racer26]

I'm going to draw a comparison here to something that happened in Finals at GTR 2009.

1114/2056/2185 had just been upset by 188/610/1305 in Finals 1. 610's shooter was broken, and a timeout called. Stuff happened, and 610's shooter was still broken. At the end of the timeout, 188 did not make it back to the field in time, and it was ruled that Finals 2 would be played without 188 on the field. 188's field coach very quickly came up with (IMO) a brilliant strategy. They began to score on themselves. I noticed this from the stands literally seconds into the match, and immediately picked up on what they were doing. They determined that they would not stand a chance up against 1114/2056/2185 playing 3 on 2, so they decided to try and force the double G14 to remove all of the super cells that the red alliance would have access to for Finals 3. In the end, the red alliance picked up on what was happening, and only took a single G14. The red alliance then went on to win the regional in Finals 3 by a margin of 7 points, scoring one of the super cells they would not have had if the strategy used in Finals 2 had been fully successful.

Was this un-GP? I don't think so, I think its creatively using the rules to gain yourself the best advantage from a crappy situation. I view playing this year's game 6v0 in much the same light. I don't however, think that out and out sabotage of 1114 or 469 should be acceptable. I don't want to beat them because I'm better at lawyering the rules. I want to beat them by winning the game, the right way.

I'm not one to be afraid to use the rules and how they're written to my advantage. I was quite pleased by my team (under my recommendation) playing WAT Q51 6v0, posting a 24-0 loss, and moving us up the standings to 8th seed. The balance of the qualifications played out and we sunk to 9th seed, to later become the 6th alliance captain.

[Joe G.]

When you are a part of an alliance, be it elimination or qualifying, The three teams involved are one team, and must play, win, and lose as such. To do anything else would be downright disturbing.

If you were a second-string football player, would you injure your own team's starter in order to give yourself a chance to shine? That's just about what you're doing here.

Strive for excellence in everything you do, but also recognize it in others when you see it, rather than try to drag it down.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Karthik

We're now at the point where people are suggesting and advocating that teams throw matches to hurt their alliance partners. Out of the box strategy is one thing, sabotage is another. I'm speechless.

I think the discussion is more hypothetical.


There is indeed a simple strategy to "break up" some imagined super-alliance (isn't there at least one each year?): Just out-play them.

[Tarzan19]

I think we need to get off the subject of how to beat other teams or how talking about how to beat other teams is bad in some sense. I am guessing there are threads for that. This thread is for the Curie division of the First Robotics Championship. Lets get back to talking about how awsome this division is going to play out and how intense the qualifying and elimination matchs are going to be.

[Mr. Pockets]

There's something about the human psyche that loves to push the rules. To find that one genius little trick to wiggle past some daunting wall carries with it a subtle pleasure, if a bit of a misguided one. Competitions are really good a calling out these desires, especially at such a high level.

I love FRC, and to imagine it without a feel of competitiveness is impossible. That desire to win must be present, it possesses (and consequently never fails to utilize) the ability to draw out the best qualities and ideas from those participating. At the same time though we can't totally forget about our principles in the excitement. There is a very fine line between competitiveness and spite.

-my $0.02

Originally Posted by Tarzan19

I think we need to get off the subject of how to beat other teams or how talking about how to beat other teams is bad in some sense. I am guessing there are threads for that. This thread is for the Curie division of the First Robotics Championship. Lets get back to talking about how awsome this division is going to play out and how intense the qualifying and elimination matchs are going to be.

Agreed. I really hope that I have the opportunity to catch a bit of the action via webcast. I've never seen globals before, and it'd be a real treat to see the best at work.

[alicen]

1379 will be there and is glad to welcome everyone into our backyard!

[BGiraud]

I hope every team plays their hearts out to play the game as it should be played. If a team is better, then so be it. They deserve to enjoy it. We will be remembering and talking about this year for a long time to come. It is possibly the best year I have experienced. Let us not ruin it.

In an attempt to divert the conversation away from "469 & 1114"....Lets say another team IS a #1 seed, and they earned it (with a little luck). If they pick 1114 (accept), then does the #1 seed beat 469 and the next best robot?

As an example: Would 1114 & 2056 (not in curie but has a history with 1114) beat 469 and the next best bot in Curie?

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by BGiraud

I hope every team plays their hearts out to play the game as it should be played. If a team is better, then so be it. They deserve to enjoy it. We will be remembering and talking about this year for a long time to come. It is possibly the best year I have experienced. Let us not ruin it.

In an attempt to divert the conversation away from "469 & 1114"....Lets say another team IS a #1 seed, and they earned it (with a little luck). If they pick 1114 (accept), then does the #1 seed beat 469 and the next best robot?

As an example: Would 1114 & 2059 (not in curie but has a history with 1114) beat 469 and the next best bot in Curie?

I assume you mean 2056? This is all really a matter of strategy, and how well the robots fit that strategy. If the 1114 alliance can get good defense on 469 once they get into the tunnel, then all is not lost, because the other alliance members may or may not be able to pick up the slack. On the other hand, 469 may not even have good scorers that will get the balls in the loop in the first place. There's too little real information to actually answer your question.

[BGiraud]

Originally Posted by Basel A

I assume you mean 2056? This is all really a matter of strategy, and how well the robots fit that strategy. If the 1114 alliance can get good defense on 469 once they get into the tunnel, then all is not lost, because the other alliance members may or may not be able to pick up the slack. On the other hand, 469 may not even have good scorers that will get the balls in the loop in the first place. There's too little real information to actually answer your question.

I am not looking for an exact statistical analysis. Opinions and intuition. I guess it comes down to can 1114 or a potential partner defend 469? I think 1114 can sucessfully defend 469 and their partners can score 2v1 sucessfully the other way. Is this crazy?

[sircedric4]

I think this thread has adequately covered the 469 and 1114 angle, but seeing as this is the Curie thread I would like to hear about the other 80+ teams in our division.

Why don't you advertise your own capabilities, what trials you have overcome, what changes you had to make to your robot because the game didn't play like you expected? I get more values from these types of threads when I hear the teams advertise what they are good at, own up to the things they are not so good at, and tell stories of how they overcame issues to better their robot.

I really like it when one team talks about another team, because it means that a team has been noticed and not just disappeared through the cracks. I would just like to turn the thread into a better place to read then the bashing and harsh strategies being battered around to shut down 2 teams out of 80+.

I'd kick things off, but I would like to see if the rest of the thread posters like this idea first and not derail the thread if you guys are adamant about continuing with the 2 team out of 80+ discussion.

[Racer26]

1075 has made some relatively major design changes at each of our competitions. Between WAT and GTR, we dropped our DS Swerving, and top bar hanger, for a more reliable drivetrain and vertical bar hanger. Now for CMP we've vastly improved our ball possessor such that we wont spend time caught up on balls, but rather, scoring them.

[Steve Compton]

Originally Posted by Don Wright

I just want to throw the other side of the coin to most of the posts in this thread. I know that this might seem like I'm trying to sway people to play differently than most of the posts above, but I just wanted to air it...

There are a lot of good teams in this division. Maybe it doesn't have the "star power" of the other divisions, but it's still very strong. Also, with the number of teams, and number of matches, the chance of getting in a qualification match with a top scoring team (either for or against) is low.

Remember, there are no wins and losses in qualification matches, only points. The only difference is that the alliance that scores more points gets two bonuses: 2x their opponent score and the 5 pt bonus.

If you want to seed well, you need to score as many points in every match you play as you possibly can. By scoring points, and seeding high, you can even control your own destiny by being in the top eight.

So, if that is your mindset, you might want to think about using your match with or against a top team to get a huge score and boost your seeding place. No, I'm not saying 6v0...although that is an option. I'm just saying that if you are lucky to get in 2 or 3 matches with a good scoring robot, those 30, 40, or 50 point matches will do a lot to getting you high into the rankings.

Furthermore, I believe that the third robot as a good striker is very important. We had a great striker in MSC and it won it for us. I will more likely take notice of the robots that go out every match and even just push in 6-8 balls per match than the robot that went out and (IMHO) didn't play the game very smart for qualifications and played defense the whole time. This causes both alliances to get a low score, which in qualification matches IS against the spirit of the game due to how the GDC has the scoring system this year... So even if you "win", you drop in rankings.

I know I'm going to have to put my flame suit on because a lot of you are going to take this as me trying to change how everyone plays against us so we can pair up with so-and-so...that's why I rarely (never) post in threads like this...

But, I honestly believe that if all of you focus so much on a few teams, and how to stop them, you are just going to hurt your chances to do well at the World Championships. It takes 24 robots and 8 alliances and 8 captains to play Saturday afternoon. Be one of those captains!

Hey Don,
Good to hear from you! I've been impressed by how remarkably constrained your kids have been in responding to the immense number of posts made about you and others this year. We've spent some time with our own kids talking about your robot, not to design ways to beat you but rather to underscore what creativity and innovation and out-of-the-box thinking can do. Of course we have develop strategies and counterstrategies, but that's not the point. We look to thinking through your design logic as foundational work for next year's build.

What you wrote about seeding points is clear and sensible, and I might even suggest that a well-balanced alliance would have a response strategy to implement that takes this into account mid-match, once they see how they are faring.

In any case, we here at 1391 look forward to playing with or against you - regardless of outcomes your robot this year leads to more thinking by all the kids, and that's got to be a good thing.

Steve

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by sircedric4

Why don't you advertise your own capabilities, what trials you have overcome, what changes you had to make to your robot because the game didn't play like you expected? I get more values from these types of threads when I hear the teams advertise what they are good at, own up to the things they are not so good at, and tell stories of how they overcame issues to better their robot.

This is a pretty cool idea.

Basically, 816 is a near zone striker this year. We have a basic 8WD with AM Plaction wheels, driven with 4 Cims through AM Toughboxes, geared for about 13 feet per second. We're built to be a tunnel bot, though we can climb the bump if needed. We have a pneumatic kicker capable of kicking over one bump that we rarely ever use. We also have a Ball Pincher that is capable of grabbing a ball and holding onto it extremely well.

We were a finalist in New Jersey with 2016 and 422 and were able to give 25 their only lose of the season. During our elimination stint in New Jersey we scored about 80% of the Ball points for our alliance by playing Striker. We also were the number 8 alliance captain in Philadelphia and managed to push our quarter final round with the Number 1 seed to 3 matches.

We play in a way that we're the perfect compliment to two decent all around robots, or even one good mid-fielder. We specialize in clearing out our home zone and scoring throughout the entire match up to the buzzer. Our motto is "If you can get the balls in our zone we'll score them". Depending on the amount of balls in the home zone we will either score a single ball at a time or score a large group of balls in and instant, we've actually scored 4 in one push, which ended up jamming the goal... Lol.

Throughout the season we've been plagued with reliably issues with our control system. We had issues with our USB Hub in New Jersey that we resolved for Philly, we broke a pin on our cRio in Philly, and We also shorted some PWMs in Philly aswell.

For the Championship we're revising our Ball Possessor once again so that it's less likely to carry balls and we're also going to add some new Autonomi so we're not forced to start in the Near Zone.