anyone have any ideas about next years game?

[Karibou]

I really hate to rain on parades and shut down ideas quickly, but the possibilities of a blind portion of a game are very slim to none. This idea comes up every year, and the main reasons why it probably won't happen (taking into account the multiple ways that the effect could be achieved, such as curtains over the driver station, over the field, etc.) are:

1. Safety. Safety safety safety. Two robots get entangled and nobody can see it? Sounds like a great way to pull some wires and create smoke (magic or otherwise). Blinding the drivers doesn't enable them to see their robot, so they couldn't see if anything were to begin malfunctioning.
2. Spectators. Probably close to 75% of the people at FIRST events are in the crowd. If they can't see part of the field, then they probably won't be too excited to watch the matches. Also, if the scouts couldn't see the robots, then they can't scout the robots for that portion, and that would be a HUGE blow to a lot of strategy teams.

I like the idea of a blind mode involving robots, but I just don't think that it's right for FIRST.

>.<

[TomH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

When thinking about autonomous ideas, people also have to consider that autonomous is really boring.

If you make autonomous longer, it will make the game boring for longer.

If you put it at the end, it's a really boring finish, plus people will just drive their robots to exactly where they'd need to be for the end game anyway.

I understand that and agree, to some level. If you think about it though, its code controlling the robot, not the driver, and if you think about it, code controlling a robot without live guidance from a driver, is neat, and it shows what robots can do, when you have good code and a good robot. And if your realized it, there are becoming more semi-autonomous ways to score, using a robot and code, and the help of a driver. I don't think autonomous is boring, and maybe the people who think that it is, don't see some of the challenges teams have to face to accomplish this.

And Karibou, I think you're right. One wrong move and one or multiple teams dreams can be ruined

[fuzzy1718]

In light of a recent thread, how about a game where wheels and treads are at a disadvantage to legs? What that would be who knows, but it would be cool. That way advantageous teams could build the legs and the rest could build the wheels. Who knows might open up new doorways for FIRST.

On the note of programming, what about a section where the bots have to lneup and grab something and they have to be really accurate. Then a dotted tape line could be sensed for the robot to line up right. It takes a real world project (cars that automatically stay in their lanes) and turns it into FIRST. Sounds like a win win to me.

[lemiant]

What about limiting transmissions from the drivers station to the robots to once every 2 (or 5) seconds, it would not impede line of sight, it would create the same necessity for autonomous and it would still give beginners a chance to compete, although with less maneuverability.

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by lemiant

What about limiting transmissions from the drivers station to the robots to once every 2 (or 5) seconds, it would not impede line of sight, it would create the same necessity for autonomous and it would still give beginners a chance to compete, although with less maneuverability.

I'm not for it, that would just make things way over complicated - as I often tell my fellow programmers

"Yes you can do it the complicated way and make your self look better, or you can do it the simpler way, and keep your life easy".

Maybe I'm wrong and it could work but its just my $0.02

[bobosalad]

Originally Posted by Epic

We all know it is going to be BattleBots.

i think they should create a battle bot challenge one year to get it out of everyones systems!!

[theprgramerdude]

I'd like to see a challenge where it's more like a race, but without actually limiting speed like in Overdrive (there were penalties for excessive speed ). It would just be a mad dash around the track, maybe with some bumps or obstacles, at top speed, so that the team that puts effort into creating the most efficient, frictionless design would win. Of course, extra bumpers on the edges would be needed for safety.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by theprgramerdude

... but without actually limiting speed like in Overdrive (there were penalties for excessive speed ...

There were? That's news to this referee.

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

There were? That's news to this referee.

And to this memorizer-of-rulebooks. I think that the penalties in question were the ones for excessive ramming rather than speed.

[Klynn]

Originally Posted by sircedric4

Like submarine ROV's and robots in space sometimes the only feedback you have is what the camera is telling you. I would like to see a bonus round where they drop a curtain in front of each driver station, and then you have to manipulate a game piece or do something else difficult based only on your video feed.

Then the camera's have to have a higher video quality then they are now, so the drivers can see what they are doing and not get DQ or penalties.

If they have a game like this its going to be hard on the drivers. And the control systems will be very complex to be able to move around on the field and teams are going to be needing more parts (who knows). But the it's going to take more time trying to figure out how to drive it with only the camera.

I'm guessing it's going to based around hockey, or some water sport.

-If it explodes, you know it was a techainal error-

[Klynn]

Originally Posted by bobosalad

i think they should create a battle bot challenge one year to get it out of everyones systems!!

They should, it would be cool to see the different designs that teams come up with it. Then maybe some more of the teams schools would come to the competitions and support their team. -daydreams if only LO* would do this-

-If it explodes, you know it was a techainal error-

* LO= Lake Orion High School

[oddjob]

Originally Posted by TomH

I don't think autonomous is boring, and maybe the people who think that it is, don't see some of the challenges teams have to face to accomplish this.

Technically, autonomous is challenging and worthwhile. From a spectators point of view, maybe it was boring in 2010. If someone walked in off the street and watched a game, they wouldn't necessarily even know that the robot is doing it's own thing for the first 20 seconds. The end of game bonus this year was exciting. Autonomous was not so much, it was just the regular game played by a program. The GDC could make autonomous more visually appealing but they don't need to make it so difficult that few teams can be successful.

As an example to make it more exciting, in this years game, replace the end of game elevation/suspension bonus with a high mounted momentary switch that has to be hit for points, and let the robots go for the switch in autonomous too. If they screw up and fall over, so sad, too bad, better luck next time. I have no clue if the GDC are satisfied with autonomous or have motivation to change it significantly. I like it but I can see why a spectator might not.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Karibou

I really hate to rain on parades and shut down ideas quickly, but the possibilities of a blind portion of a game are very slim to none. This idea comes up every year, and the main reasons why it probably won't happen (taking into account the multiple ways that the effect could be achieved, such as curtains over the driver station, over the field, etc.) are:

1. Safety. Safety safety safety. Two robots get entangled and nobody can see it? Sounds like a great way to pull some wires and create smoke (magic or otherwise). Blinding the drivers doesn't enable them to see their robot, so they couldn't see if anything were to begin malfunctioning.
2. Spectators. Probably close to 75% of the people at FIRST events are in the crowd. If they can't see part of the field, then they probably won't be too excited to watch the matches. Also, if the scouts couldn't see the robots, then they can't scout the robots for that portion, and that would be a HUGE blow to a lot of strategy teams.

I like the idea of a blind mode involving robots, but I just don't think that it's right for FIRST.

>.<

I disagree with your assessments here and I'll answer each of your reasons:
1> Safety -- Just because the driver(s) cannot directly see does not mean that they cannot get information about the robots. Camera feedback and human players (looking around the curtain ... lets call them spotters) could easily give feedback to the drivers.

2> Spectators/crowds -- In most arenas the crowd sees from the side of the field, so you would lose less than 10% seating visibility. You could also tap into the teams video feed (if they have one ... it's IP is known) and feed that to the big board, giving the crowd (and possibly human players) a robots eye view (something that would make the game MORE exciting ... if you ask me).


Are there issues to overcome in driving without seeing the robot? Absolutely.
Are they impossible to overcome? not at all.

[mayde]

You must be pretty eager to start up for next season!

for as much as it would rock to know the game this early in advance,
i think if we did, my team would get no fundraising done over the summer.

but, wouldn't it be great if the game was entirely dancing robots??

[Radical Pi]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

You could also tap into the teams video feed (if they have one ... it's IP is known)

The DS could forward the camera to the FMS, however the FMS has no direct connection to the robot (everything is through the classmate), so this wouldn't work without breaking the alternate-language dashboards in the process