Championship 2010 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please?

[Shishkaa585]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

No, there may have been teams that were rude and "un-FIRST" but I doubt there was any particular correlation between teams that bought there way in and teams that act like jerks.

Yea i should of thought that out before i said that, i take that back.
lol too tired from the 4 hour flight to LAX from Atlanta and all the fun at competition

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by LWakefield

I have to disagree. We were yelled at for not sitting down. So much for gracious professionalism. It is the championship. You should be able to stand up. If a team is mad, they can move where they sit.

No they can't. There aren't exactly an abundance of free seats for each division to clearly see the field, especially for scouting but even just to get a view of the match.

(I never get why it's okay to stand for an entire match if the people behind you aren't scouting. I would like to think that they, too, are watching the match...)

[sircedric4]

Originally Posted by Shishkaa585

Winning isnt the only goal of FIRST though. Its about spreading FIRST's ideals so to me any team should be allowed to go if they can pay for it.

I agree with this statement completely. FIRST is about inspiration and part of that inspiration is a chance to get out and compete and see robots that are really, really good, as well as those that aren't. I mean just because some team is a powerhouse and "better" doesn't mean that they can't learn from some novel mechanism or strategy from a newer, "worse" robot. There are thousands of people in this game and I learn as much from the smaller teams failures as I do from powerhouse bulletproof bots.

How is a small team that isn't located near where a power team lives and plays ever supposed to see how a "championship" level robot works and looks if they never get a chance to compete with them?

I know that some of the smaller regionals don't have the caliber of robot that is present at some of the older more established regionals/locations and for many, including our team, the only chance we get to see the other robots is at the Championships. I like the ability to go every 4 years even if you haven't "earned" your way there because you expose more students to the things that make FIRST great. FIRST isn't just about the competition.

As for the topic, I think that when setting up the pits at the Championships, more effort should be put into making sure that the PA system and announcements can actually be heard and understood throughout. I don't think i understood any announcement in the pits throughout the competition.

I also think that in addition to the "official" practice fields, there should be a more casual location setup with some of the main field pieces setup so a team can evaluate their robot without having to do a full practice thing. We made a couple tweaks to our robot to make our looper better and weren't sure we could still climb the bumps without flipping until we tried it in our first qualifier match. If there was a couple bumps setup somewhere where we could have just set our robot on it without having to go through the sign up process that would have been mucho helpful.

Overall I had a very good time at the Champs.

[Basel A]

No they can't. There aren't exactly an abundance of free seats for each division to clearly see the field, especially for scouting but even just to get a view of the match.

(I never get why it's okay to stand for an entire match if the people behind you aren't scouting. I would like to think that they, too, are watching the match...)

See above. Our team only stands up to cheer our team onto the field (anyone hear our NERD ALERTs?), then, for the rest of the match, make a ruckus from a sitting position.

[Katie_UPS]

For those wanting Einstein in the middle:
That will delay finals even more. Taking down the curtains (I imagine) is not a five minute task. Also, it would take time to set up the field, as having it there the entire event will affect robot traffic to Curie and Archimedes. Also, the "awards" stage and field/tech tables will have no where to be. I understand why you guys want it to be more center, but its just not logistically sound.

I thoroughly enjoyed the event (but I was also team-less). I would comment that FIRST should note field awards ceremonies, as Curie's was still going on when they started the videos, and I'm sure many teams missed the Myth Busters.

[Don Wright]

Just a few comments (some second hand, and some repeated):

- I agree...leave the practice field up for one more hour...
- (second hand) have a space for the field teams of the teams playing on Einstein to see the matches. Our field team couldn't even see the matches we were in...
- I would love to see the food restrictions relaxed, but understand that might be difficult for the venue
- Bring video back to the pits
- If you are going to let us in to work on the robots Wed. night (which I love), let us bring more than 5 people in. I understand keeping it light for removing crates (or just let us bring our robots...ahem), but only 5?
- I won't bring up the standing during the match topic again since I've beat it to death in past years...we had little issues this year. Which was good because we had several kids under 10 with us which wouldn't have been able to see the matches even if they stood when you did...
- Let the security team know we are allowed to have cameras and video cameras in the stands. One of our students was told we couldn't have a video camera on a tripod unless we had the media pass on it...
- I don't know the arena in St. Louis, but if the loading/unloading area was bigger so it wouldn't take so long for the bus and trucks with trailers to get into the load/unload area.

That's all I can think of for now...

[BJT]

In regards to the question of the Open bids being a good idea, or lowering the level of competition at Champs, At every regional there are 7 alliance captains that do not "earn" their way in to atlanta, and one second round pick that does.
I like the present system.

[WJF2011]

1) dear god can we please have ALL the awards given out BEFORE einstein? it made me want to cry having to wait for each award between elims, like seriously if you want FIRST to be popular dont make the best part of it unbearably boring
2) Have teams earn their ways in can be stupid though becuase some statistics are arbitrary and some people who win regionals as second picks are not as strong as others who might have won anything. I think it should be if you are picked for an alliance at any regional for elims then you can go.
3) Dont repeat the same songs over and over again
4) walking between the G dome and the GWCC was kinda annoying.

[LLogan]

Originally Posted by WJF2011

4) walking between the G dome and the GWCC was kinda annoying.

If you can find another enormous facility that houses almost 340 teams' pits that is within the same proximity that the GWCC is to the Dome, please let FIRST know and make a suggestion.

Originally Posted by GGCO

Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.

Following this logic, you are saying that "teams that aren't an asset to their alliances" shouldn't be allowed into the Championship. There were teams with merit-based qualifying awards, such as Regional Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration, or Rookie All-Star, that fielded less-than-stellar robots. At the same time, there were teams with incredible robots that may have gotten unlucky during qualification matches and/or alliance selections and may not have won their regional, or received a qualifying award. My team is extremely grateful for the open-bids to the Championship. Even though we qualified with a regional win this year, we still paid for an open bid months ahead of time. In 2008 and 2009, we also went to the Championship with an open bid.

Just because "teams aren't an asset to their alliance" doesn't mean that FIRST should not allow open bids to the Championship.

-Logan

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.

I'd actually argue about 50% of the "not an asset to their alliance" teams you refer to are second picks at weak events, young Rookie All Star / EI winners, etc. Many buy their way in, yeah, but making Champs qualification only won't fix that, so I'd rather not cut off a channel of inspiration to kind of fix something that is only kind of a problem.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Good discussion on some difficult and touchy subjects.

1) Sitting vs. standing: After standing all year at district/regional venues where the layout of the stands makes it less of an issue for those behind us (we normally sat in the back and could still see without binoculars), it was an adjustment to stand and cheer during the introductions and sit for the match. It was the proper thing to do under the circumstances, but it does put a damper on displays of team spirit. Perhaps in St. Louis they can put the fields further away from the side wall.

2) Einstein field placement & ceremonies: Instead of putting Einstein on the "50 yard line", perhaps they could put it in the end zone, oriented perpendicular to the other fields. The "wrap-around" seating would put more people closer to the field & podium. I think they do a good job with the scheduling. It is important to recognize everyone's achievements, and it is apparent that they do their best to be efficient with time. The sad reality is that if award presentations weren't intermixed with Einstein matches, people would not be there to watch them.

3) "Buy-In" vs. "Win to go": There are good reasons for the open bid system and I fully support the concept (every student should go to the Championship at least once during their years in FIRST). However, having open bids and other award winners there does affect the level of competition (good, bad or indifferent). What if they put all the regional event winners on two of the fields and the open bid and award winners on the other fields? The winners could still face each other on Einstein. I'm not sure I support this, but it might be worth some discussion.

4) General venue issues: I wasn't impressed with the food at the venue. I couldn't hear anything on the PA in the pits. I logged a lot of miles walking back and forth between the field and pits after every match. I wish we could have brought our own food and water. Oh, well. That comes with the territory. It's not a big deal, but I would appreciate any efforts to improve on this in St. Louis. I just hope we get a chance to go and find out if they do!

We had a great time in Atlanta this year. Thank you to everyone who made it possible!

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

For those wanting Einstein in the middle:
That will delay finals even more. Taking down the curtains (I imagine) is not a five minute task. Also, it would take time to set up the field, as having it there the entire event will affect robot traffic to Curie and Archimedes. Also, the "awards" stage and field/tech tables will have no where to be. I understand why you guys want it to be more center, but its just not logistically sound.

I thoroughly enjoyed the event (but I was also team-less). I would comment that FIRST should note field awards ceremonies, as Curie's was still going on when they started the videos, and I'm sure many teams missed the Myth Busters.

I can agree with this 100%. I was upset i missed the video because i was finishing up awards on Curie. The field finals were projected to finish after 4PM, but because they didn't. I think the staff decided to start the event on time instead of waiting 15 minutes for the awards to pack up on Curie.

That was the only thing i disliked about the event, along with the obvious situation of stolen items (I'm still shocked about that).

I'll suggest this idea once again. It's a compromise about the "every team can come and play at CMP" vs "you should earn your way into CMP". is as folows.

Event Type: FIRST Championship Last Minute Qualifying Heat
Event Capacity: 32 Teams.
Registration Criteria: Open Registration, closes the Friday before Championship
Cost: $2,000. another $3500 if you qualify for Championships through this system, which must be paid on the spot once you qualify.
Location: Same Venue as the Championship, using the four Division fields
Dates: Tuesday/Wednesday the week of Championship. There will be two time slots, each team can only register for one per day. The two time slots are 8:45am - 12:15pm and 2:00pm - 5:30pm
Structure: Each team gets 3 qualification matches, 0 practice matches. after the qualification matches (16 matches, 1hr 36min on a 6 minute cycle). The top four teams will be chosen as alliance captions, Alliance selections will occur, and the elimination matches will be played.
Setup: Just the field/FMS, referee's/scorekeepers and field reset/2 queuing people, nothing else is really necessary. That stuff can be set up in preparation for Thursday.
Awards: The winning alliance along with a team that the Referee's feel is deserving of competing at the Championship Event will each be invited to the Championship later that week*. No banners, trophies or banners will be handed out.
*= if a backup robot is called to replace a robot on the winning alliance, there will be no "extra invite".

I think this would solve a lot of problems, if a team is willing to compete and wants to go bad enough, they would compete in the heats.

I really enjoyed the deans list ceremony, considering it was totally last minute. (FIRST only found out the Friday before Championships that the Secretary of Education would be attending for an hour.) Myself and a few others had to run around the pits Thursday giving teams flyers and telling them to come to the event.

Something from the Edwards Jones Dome Facts Webpage

Originally Posted by Explore St. Louis Website

Incentive design features allow the Dome floor to be transformed easily from convention exhibition space to football field to concert venue. The first 14 rows of permanent seats are retractable as they fold back to provide a smooth wall appearance when the exhibit hall floor is being used for exhibits or meetings. A full section of seats is removable allowing exhibits to flow freely from America's Center's five exhibition halls directly into Hall 6, the Dome floor. Connecting all six halls creates 502,000 square feet of contiguous prime exhibit space.

In other words, We're going to have a free-flow pits to field system in St. Louis, this is a HUGE plus

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Sure, but you're an exception. There are plenty of teams that buy their way in and aren't an asset to their alliances.

I don't think you get the whole idea of student engineering competitions...

[Rick TYler]

Seat saving -- the absolute worst part of Championships. I have only been to Champs once with our FTC students (I couldn't make it this year) and seating was just awful. I tried to sit and watch some FRC matches while I was there and EVERY SINGLE TIME I went to sit down some snot-nosed kid (and a few snot-nosed adults) came running over to tell me I was not welcome because these were reserved seats for their team. The only way I got to sit was to ignore them and stay where I was. In the FTC fields, a huge group of parents and other relatives from a single team camped out in the first four rows right behind the fields, blocked seats, and sat there for the entire tournament. Even when their team wasn't on the field and most of them were gone, they managed to cover seats with clothing and other personal possessions to guarantee that no one else could sit in "their" seats.

I once tried to politely explain FIRST's seating rules to some adults in Portland and almost got punched for my efforts. How about disqualifying a team from competition for a year for violating the seat saving rules? I can guarantee that not many teams would be penalized before the practice died out.

I can't imagine how someone not involved with a team would ever enjoy visiting a FIRST event if mine is a typical experience. One of the great things about scorekeeping is that I always get my own chair.

On the other hand, I love the pits and asking students about their robots. That's the cool part.

[sanddrag]

DISLIKES:

Match list needs to be online as soon as it gets put in teams hands on paper.

The heat and humidity in the pit on Wednesday night was almost unbearable. Also, for teams with their 5 members arriving at different times, giving all 5 wristbands to the first person was not smart. Many would argue limiting it to only 5 people was not smart either. For many teams, 5 people is not enough to carry necessary items in and get started working safely. Do we want 5 people working at a 2x pace endangering themselves, or 10 people working at a more normal pace?

Escalators that didn't work were really troublesome.

Having an entrance to the pits directly at the bottom of an active down escalator was a big mistake. Teams who piled up down there at 7:15 AM to get into that (then closed) door should be ashamed of themselves. I'm surprised nobody broke an ankle in a pileup. Not a safe situation.

The sound quality was absolutely terrible for a lot of the time (at least on Archimedes). Several times, the announcer would exclaim something that made me say "Owww!" with regard to my ears. The volume was FAR too loud. With the number of UL safety guys/gals we have at these events, I would enjoy seeing them put more emphasis on safe sound levels. Not sure if it was sub-par amps, or too much volume in too small of speakers or what, but it was downright painful to listen to at many times. I had to leave the stands. On several occasions when I left the dome, everything around me sounded muted and muffled, for up to hours even. This is a clear indicator that sound in the dome had reached a dangerous level. The problem is the sound guys checking it have been blasting their ears with loud music for 20 years. They don't know what loud is anymore. I might as well mention the finale stage sound was too loud as well.

The food at Food World in Building C was overpriced and not good. Not sure why they ever did away with the pasta place (which was pretty good a couple years ago). With the exception of the rolls, the food at the Finale was not good either. Why was there no real Coca-Cola Classic? We were in Atlanta. The Coke Zero stuff is not even remotely similar. Also, the refilling staff were dumping heavy cans on top of people's arms who were just trying to get a cold one (which none of them were).

I think all the big-stage music/acts/whatever at the Finale could have been much better.

Teams yelling "ROBOT!" at the top of their lungs while strolling through the pit area was really getting out of hand. When you do that, you are not being safe, you are being downright obnoxious, and in some respects unsafe. If I am in the FLL pits and you are yelling "ROBOT!" in the Curie pits and I can hear you as if you were behind me, we have a problem.

DOGMA penalties that accumulated for a ball that missed a counter was just plain stupid. There should only be one penalty assigned for improper return, not a penalty for the whole time the FMS computer thinks it is gone. There is a referee watching the alliance station who can see there is clearly no ball that has been kept in the station. 20+ points in DOGMA penalties is not the way any match should ever end. The field should have be designed in a fashion such that ball return is so stupidly simple it can't get screwed up by the human player.

LIKES:

The venue event staff (yellow jacket people) was amazingly friendly this year. I'm not sure what FIRST told those folks but it worked. I was glad to see them asking about matches and congratulating teams on their way to and from the field. The elevator attendants were a nice touch too.

The explanation of the FIRST Logo was good.

The fireworks were quite good. I'll call that money well spent.

The new schedule and 10 matches was good.

The new seats in the dome seemed better than 2008.

The Einstein video screen was beautiful.

The food at the CNN Center was great.

The generosity of my good friends at team 368, over all 4 days of the event.

And, I'm sure there's more that I can't remember right now.