Championship 2010 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please?

[hipsterjr]

This isn't really about FIRST, but more about the event staff: Seeing as my team wasn't in the finals and the lower seats are reserved, we all made our way to the upper deck. The problem was that I had a segway and my friend had two small children in strollers. All ramps and elevators were blocked off. It took 30min and the event staff supervisor escorting us just to be able to sit with my team upstairs. It was very frustrating.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Rob

Negatives:

It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.

My second gripe is not Championship specific except that I feel that there should be consistency among ref calls across the board. A team should not be left scratching their head when presented with a ruling that seemed obvious. Specifically I am referring to an instance where the plastic cover to the field gate came off and was pushed in front of our tower. It interfered with our drive system and prevented us from reaching the tower to hang in a match that we lost 8-7. I can't think of a more clear example of a field failure, which should have resulted in a replay. The head ref informed us that we should not have driven over it. I beg to differ as we had a single path to the tower and it was blocked by this piece of the field that broke off. We may not have been able to elevate for the win, but would shure have appreciated the opportunity to try.

Regarding your first negative comment: we noticed a decided "push" by the field crew as well. Point of fact, in the eliminations we had all three of our robots on our alliance break at nearly the same time. Two kickers and one pneumatic system. In all three instances, the refs were pushing to immediately get back on the field and play.

In one case, a timeout was called and the refs started yelling at us to get on the field with more than a minute remaining.

Indeed, during the eliminations with all the ties our team went through we were on the field for 7 (SEVEN!) consecutive matches. Even after using an air compressor to blow off the engines and compressed air cans upside down (instant liquid air) our torque had dropped too low to be able to turn the robot easily - the driver had to rock the bot to get it to turn.

If the qualification matches need to go fast, that's fine. The eliminations need to slow down a bit: teams need a little cool off time! Especially when running that many consecutive matches.

Regarding the plastic panels on the field, we knocked those off this year no fewer than a dozen times. I was a little shocked that they still hadn't fastened them on, even in the championships. At one point in the eliminations we knocked yet another of the gate panels off, and the corner of our robot got wedged on the vertical edge of the foot plate. We pulled loose.....luckily. So I agree with you there.

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Rob

Negatives:

It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.

Let me shed a little light on this because I think there is some misinformation here. While it is correct that field crews on each field are competing to get to Einstein, it is not because they are trying to finish early. It actually has more to do with staying exactly on schedule. The objective is to get each field as close to the scheduled turnaround time as possible. As a matter of fact, we even had to slow down on Galileo in order to get back on track. Fact is, the fields need to stay on schedule because of a multitude of reasons. These reasons (and the hustle to get done) would remain reguardless of the field crew incentive. Volunteers work extremely hard at Championships. Many of them spend alot of their own money to be there for you. I feel that it important to throw them a bone every once in a while. Every volunteer wants to be a part of Einstein, but very few can. It is great motivation to keep going, because it is such a difficult weekend to get through.

Great job this weekend Rob! Hope this explanation helps.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Rob

Negatives:

It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.

We are encouraged to do six minute turn around times at every event whether or not there is some prize offered for accomplishing this.
Would you have rather have the event run til 9 every night?

[Nawaid Ladak]

Two suggestions I might make to solve both he Media Issue and my take on the 4 team alliance.

1. Why not just give out a badge saying "+1" or "Extra" instead of labeling a badge "Media". These people could still be used as media, but can also be scouts, mechanics or coaches. I think this would solve the problem of people going out on to the field. Personally, i don't cre if you have a media badge on the field as long as i see a camera.

2. The 4 Team Alliance would be awesome, You can switch out teams as needed. there are so many different types of robots and various strategies during the competition that i cannot see 3 robots that would be ideal on a alliance in ALL of these situations. I'll just wait until a team does it with three and then worry about imposing a rule of some sort.

while we're on the topic of strategy, Wouldn't it be nice if the #1 alliance could pick which alliance from #5-#8 they wanted to play. sometimes that #8 alliance can be scary to go up against (I know this year it wasn't, but it previous years it has been). The #2, #3 and #4 would follow the same process. I also think reseeding after the 1st round would be something FIRST could look into. here is an example why

1--------3--------2
8---8---------7---7
-------8 v 3 -------
4---4---------3---3
5-----------------6

I think it would have been fair for the 3 alliance to face the 8 alliance in the semi's and then face the winner of the 4/7 matchup in the finals (The 7 alliance gave the 3 alliance a tougher fight in the semi's at FL).

[ChristinaR]

As a couple folks have already mentioned, some teams do seem to like using a team media badge to have an extra mentor or student on the floor. I personally spotted a few. I think it's unfortunate that teams choose to "cheat" like that, and don't even care to hide it (not carrying a camera of any variety). It's especially bad to see those with the badges with their hands inside the robot making adjustments. What does this say to the students on the team about playing fair?

Also on the topic of media: there was a lack of consistency amongst the divisions' fields and even volunteers in each division regarding where I could stand. By (I think) Friday, all FRC fields had drawn lines that the media and other spectators had to stand behind. However, there was inconsistency regarding what kind of media. I had a media badge with my name and company and was told to stay behind the line many times. Other times, a volunteer would say, "Oh no, you're national media, you can go wherever you want here." I'm still not sure which is correct, but to avoid conflict (some volunteers were less than GP about this) I stayed behind the given line, even if that meant getting less photos or having less angles to shoot. I understand that because I'm college-age I may be initially thought of as team media, but the badges are quite different in appearance.

Originally Posted by Nawaid Ladak

1. Why not just give out a badge saying "+1" or "Extra" instead of labeling a badge "Media". These people could still be used as media, but can also be scouts, mechanics or coaches. I think this would solve the problem of people going out on to the field. Personally, i don't cre if you have a media badge on the field as long as i see a camera.

If FIRST were to do this, no team would have media on the field.


I don't quite understand why the Dean's List ceremony took place at Centennial Olympic Park. There are a reason these deserving kids got the award, let them bask in the glory of having it being announced in front of the Championship attendees in the dome, just like having it announced in front of everyone at the regional.

With regards to open bids vs. only merit-based slots for teams: The open bids keep the divisions diverse. It also gives a team a chance to go who may not have qualified at a regional event. This can keep the students interested and excited in FIRST. If FIRST only allowed merit-based teams to register, I would have never gone to Championship in my years as a student, and I can say for sure that it was my first time stepping into the Georgia Dome that got me truly hooked. I wouldn't want to deny this to teams who are financially prepared, but can't quite win their way there.


With all that being said, it was a great event! Onward to St. Louis!

[Chris is me]

I think it would be cool if FIRST gave an extra "non drive team" badge for the field, and then strictly enforced the media pass rules. The extra person could be a team tactician, which many teams offboard from their drive coach, or maybe just any student who wants to get on the dome floor and watch a match from it. This would encourage people to use the "media pass" badge as intended while still giving teams a bit of flexibility on field since the Championship field and pits are so far away.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I think it would be cool if FIRST gave an extra "non drive team" badge for the field, and then strictly enforced the media pass rules. The extra person could be a team tactician, which many teams offboard from their drive coach, or maybe just any student who wants to get on the dome floor and watch a match from it. This would encourage people to use the "media pass" badge as intended while still giving teams a bit of flexibility on field since the Championship field and pits are so far away.

The last thing we need is even more people down on the overcrowded field area. You know how hard it is to maintain the flow of an event when you have people standing around all over the place right where you have to get robots on and off the field?
Keep them iin the stands and the pits where they belong and out of the way of the actual event so we can get the actual business of running the event done.

[carolyn]

Originally Posted by hipsterjr

This isn't really about FIRST, but more about the event staff: Seeing as my team wasn't in the finals and the lower seats are reserved, we all made our way to the upper deck. The problem was that I had a segway and my friend had two small children in strollers. All ramps and elevators were blocked off. It took 30min and the event staff supervisor escorting us just to be able to sit with my team upstairs. It was very frustrating.

I had a similar experience. I was in a wheelchair due to a recently broken ankle, and the only elevator we could find was one that went through a vip room. I was told I had to get credentials to be able to get off of the elevator on the second level, where my team was sitting. It was a very upsetting experience and it also took us 30 minutes just to be able to go up one level.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by carolyn

I had a similar experience. I was in a wheelchair due to a recently broken ankle, and the only elevator we could find was one that went through a vip room. I was told I had to get credentials to be able to get off of the elevator on the second level, where my team was sitting. It was a very upsetting experience and it also took us 30 minutes just to be able to go up one level.

This isn't really about FIRST, but more about the event staff: Seeing as my team wasn't in the finals and the lower seats are reserved, we all made our way to the upper deck. The problem was that I had a segway and my friend had two small children in strollers. All ramps and elevators were blocked off. It took 30min and the event staff supervisor escorting us just to be able to sit with my team upstairs. It was very frustrating.

The staff was no doubt following policy set forth by the Georgia Dome management and are expected to follow that to the letter most likely with dire consequences (like being fired) if they make any exceptions.
Like all arenas they have strict and sometimes unexplainable rules that frustrate patrons. I would try to get them to contact someone in management (politely as possible. These guys are just making a living. No reason to make their experience with FIRST folks a miserable one) and explain your situation and maybe a compromise can be reached.

[ChristinaR]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

The last thing we need is even more people down on the overcrowded field area. You know how hard it is to maintain the flow of an event when you have people standing around all over the place right where you have to get robots on and off the field?
Keep them iin the stands and the pits where they belong and out of the way of the actual event so we can get the actual business of running the event done.

I agree. Curie was especially crowded during eliminations, what with team media, regular media, and VIPs coming to see 1114/469 play. In my opinion, there are enough people down on the field as it is.

[SprocketGuy]

I am a teacher/mentor for one of the Canadian teams and we just arrived back this afternoon from a very long and eventful trip home from Atlanta. I just wanted to add in a few observations that my students and I discussed regarding this incredible event.

This was the first visit to the Championships for team 1075 and I will say that we did purchase our way to the event. This has been 8 years in the making and the reward was very sweet! I would definitely like to say we support the option of buying in to the tournament because up here in Canada we have two powerhouse teams that deservedly dominate the award categories at our two regionals that earn your right to attend. (We were looking forward to a showdown between them in the Einstein finals, but it wasn't meant to be!) I'm not saying they can't be defeated but it's easier said than done and the option to buy in allowed us to reward our first group of students that started way back in grade 9 and will be moving on to greater things next year. Without the option we would have never been able to share this wonderful experience with everyone.

As first time attendee we were awestruck by the size and quality of the tournament. We had heard it was big, but words can not describe... People were very friendly and supportive, and we were impressed by the efficiency of the organizers. Everything ran like clockwork and we had a blast.

Two things that definitely came up as a criticism. One was the length of the Kamen speech during the finals. (I heard in retrospect that this is not uncommon.) I casually observed many members of my team and the teams around me get more and more disconnected as their attention wavered. I do believe some of the message was lost in the delivery, which is a shame because it was a positive one.

Second, and I only offer this up because it was discussed amongst my students, we did not feel the language used was as inclusive as it could have been for the international attendees. From the launch to the closing ceremonies, we found the message of many of the FIRST speakers to be very United States centric. Obviously the VAST majority of teams hail from the USA, but it's my belief, and those of my students, that FIRST could be a little better at acknowledging that this is a global program with many countries involved. There were teams that flew for as long as we drove to attend this tournament and that should be recognized.

These may be minor points, and apparently some have been discussed at length before, but I felt I should post the positives and the concerns that were raised by the team on the bus ride home.

Congratulations to everyone who participated. You made a lasting impression on our team.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by SprocketGuy

Two things that definitely came up as a criticism. One was the length of the Kamen speech during the finals. (I heard in retrospect that this is not uncommon.) I casually observed many members of my team and the teams around me get more and more disconnected as their attention wavered. I do believe some of the message was lost in the delivery, which is a shame because it was a positive one.

I don't know if Dean has ever made it up to Canada so this may be your first time seeing the man in person. I see him at many events and all his speeches are long rambling affairs. Some love them others just wait for them to end.

[waialua359]

Hey,
you must be the guy that sat next to me in the stands. You brought up some good points that afternoon.

Originally Posted by SprocketGuy

I am a teacher/mentor for one of the Canadian teams and we just arrived back this afternoon from a very long and eventful trip home from Atlanta. I just wanted to add in a few observations that my students and I discussed regarding this incredible event.

This was the first visit to the Championships for team 1075 and I will say that we did purchase our way to the event. This has been 8 years in the making and the reward was very sweet! I would definitely like to say we support the option of buying in to the tournament because up here in Canada we have two powerhouse teams that deservedly dominate the award categories at our two regionals that earn your right to attend. (We were looking forward to a showdown between them in the Einstein finals, but it wasn't meant to be!) I'm not saying they can't be defeated but it's easier said than done and the option to buy in allowed us to reward our first group of students that started way back in grade 9 and will be moving on to greater things next year. Without the option we would have never been able to share this wonderful experience with everyone.

As first time attendee we were awestruck by the size and quality of the tournament. We had heard it was big, but words can not describe... People were very friendly and supportive, and we were impressed by the efficiency of the organizers. Everything ran like clockwork and we had a blast.

Two things that definitely came up as a criticism. One was the length of the Kamen speech during the finals. (I heard in retrospect that this is not uncommon.) I casually observed many members of my team and the teams around me get more and more disconnected as their attention wavered. I do believe some of the message was lost in the delivery, which is a shame because it was a positive one.

Second, and I only offer this up because it was discussed amongst my students, we did not feel the language used was as inclusive as it could have been for the international attendees. From the launch to the closing ceremonies, we found the message of many of the FIRST speakers to be very United States centric. Obviously the VAST majority of teams hail from the USA, but it's my belief, and those of my students, that FIRST could be a little better at acknowledging that this is a global program with many countries involved. There were teams that flew for as long as we drove to attend this tournament and that should be recognized.

These may be minor points, and apparently some have been discussed at length before, but I felt I should post the positives and the concerns that were raised by the team on the bus ride home.

Congratulations to everyone who participated. You made a lasting impression on our team.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by hipsterjr

Originally Posted by hipsterjr View Post
This isn't really about FIRST, but more about the event staff: Seeing as my team wasn't in the finals and the lower seats are reserved, we all made our way to the upper deck. The problem was that I had a segway and my friend had two small children in strollers. All ramps and elevators were blocked off. It took 30min and the event staff supervisor escorting us just to be able to sit with my team upstairs. It was very frustrating.

Originally Posted by carolyn

I had a similar experience. I was in a wheelchair due to a recently broken ankle, and the only elevator we could find was one that went through a vip room. I was told I had to get credentials to be able to get off of the elevator on the second level, where my team was sitting. It was a very upsetting experience and it also took us 30 minutes just to be able to go up one level.

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

The staff was no doubt following policy set forth by the Georgia Dome management and are expected to follow that to the letter most likely with dire consequences (like being fired) if they make any exceptions.
Like all arenas they have strict and sometimes unexplainable rules that frustrate patrons. I would try to get them to contact someone in management (politely as possible. These guys are just making a living. No reason to make their experience with FIRST folks a miserable one) and explain your situation and maybe a compromise can be reached.

Ed is right. the GA Dome staff had a poster in each elevator of which badges could and could not go in that elevator. It's truly unfortunate that they couldn't make an exception for those in wheelchairs or with strollers, but those are the rules, and like Ed said, they could be fired for breaking those rules. I'm sure it's something to take into consideration with the St. Louis staff.

Funny story: Dean arrived in the VIP area in the middle of the day, and needed to be at an interview. He attempted to walk past the VIP check-in and past the GA Dome staff member who was guarding the VIP area. The man stopped Dean and said "I'm sorry, sir, but you can't come through here, you don't have a badge."
Dean's picture was up on a poster directly next to the guard's head. The FIRST staff pointed to it and told the guard, "No, you can let him through, it's OK.". The man shook his head and calmly said "No ma'am, I can't. He doesn't have a badge, and I'm not allowed to let anyone without a badge through. I'm just doing my job." Dean went over to the table, got his badge, and was let through for his interview- but not without shaking the staff member's hand and thanking him for doing his job.