Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

I'm not a manual laborer -- I'm a teacher. (Ok, and a part-time beekeeper. Which is manual labor. But that doesn't really count.)

Right. I like wood working -- with hand tools.
It's manual, dirty, therapeutic, and I do it (or not) at my discretion.

The mentor I quoted, however, is a manual laborer, he chose to be a manual laborer, he loves what he does, and he (rightfully) thinks that his place in society should be valued.

Yes, his place in society should be valued -- by society -- and I believe it is.
But if nobody is willing to pay him to do what he loves doing, is it honestly inaccurate (much less offensive) to say that what he does is valueless?

He (Dean) specifically said that we don't want the old jobs back (which is hard to hear when you know a lot of people who would really, really, REALLY like to have their old jobs back...

In 1983, I worked at the Western Electric Plant in Dundalk MD.
At the time, there were about 5,000 essentially unskilled laborers working there in 3 shifts.
We had a strong union, good benefits, and excellent pay (when I left in '83, I was making over $13.00 an hour).
By 1986, the entire plant was shuttered and all the jobs gone.
Those jobs didn't disappear because society deemed the people who did them valueless -- the economy deemed them valueless.
The people who did those jobs had no control over their own destiny, no say in their own future, no recourse but to hope (for most, in vain) that 'something else would come along' -- or that the old jobs would come back.

The real problem here is not with Dean's words but with the effect those words had on certain people.
We are all largely a product of our life experiences.
How we react to words and phrases is more a function of who we are than it is about the words themselves or the person who uttered them.
Is it bad, shameful, or undesirable to be a manual laborer?
It's a pointless question in absence of a precise meaning for those two words.
And let's face it, as this thread shows, 'manual labor' seems to have many meanings -- ranging from noble to 'no way'.

I simply argue that it's unfair to take someone's words and project one's personal bias onto that person as if there's no question what was meant.
I will relent that Dean could have (OK, should have) been more precise -- 'menial unskilled manual laborers' might have been safer.
But I don't believe he was referring to brick-layers, or plumbers, or HVAC mechanics, or skilled carpenters when he said 'manual laborers'.
I believe, based on my life experience, he was referring to those 5,00 poor folk who bet their futures on an industry that outgrew the need for them.

The bottom line of my issue here is that his comment very likely cost my small, rural team mentors and sponsors that they cannot afford to lose. Speeches being what they are, they shouldn't be negatively impacting teams.

Whether or not you agree with my gripe about the speech, I'm certain that I'm not the only person with the same take on it -- nor my mentors the only mentors, nor my sponsors the only sponsors.

Whether or not I agree with how you 'feel' about the meaning of ambiguous phrases is irrelevant.
Whether or not others agree with how you 'feel' about them is equally irrelevant.
You have a selling job ahead of you and, as hard as it may be to accept, I'm trying to help you.
You could try to convince your sponsors and mentor that Dean is an elitist buffoon and that, because you are so completely mortified and embarrassed by his insensitive words and callous attitude, they should stick with you in spite of him.
Or you might try to get them to understand that possibly, just maybe, there was no actual offense in what he said.
Whichever way you go, I really hope you succeed -- really.
We are a small rural team too, and I think we share your vulnerabilities.

[EricVanWyk]

I had a few mentors who point blank said "Saturday was fantastic, until Dean ruined it with his speech."

[GaryVoshol]

I was thinking for a long time how to respond to this thread. But Jason and Georgie's Dad said it much better than I could. Repped. (Sorry, Jason, "You must spread ...")

I definitely would let FIRST know how Dean's remarks were heard. They need to know if the message they want to send is being received correctly or not.

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk

I had a few mentors who point blank said "Saturday was fantastic, until Dean ruined it with his speech."

But don't they say that every year -- no matter what words Dean chooses?

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by gvarndell

Yes, his place in society should be valued -- by society -- and I believe it is.
But if nobody is willing to pay him to do what he loves doing, is it honestly inaccurate (much less offensive) to say that what he does is valueless?

The conditional statement as presented is of course rhetorical, but the "if" part of the sentence doesn't apply to any of my mentors.

Originally Posted by gvarndell

The real problem here is not with Dean's words but with the effect those words had on certain people.

Why can't it be both?

Originally Posted by gvarndell

But I don't believe he was referring to brick-layers, or plumbers, or HVAC mechanics, or skilled carpenters when he said 'manual laborers'.

I don't see how that's relevant. From the ladies in the VIP elevators who were pushing buttons for him, to the servers getting him food and busing his table, to all those gentlemen expertly moving/shipping/moving-again all of those robot crates, FIRST itself runs on the backs of unskilled, menial, manual labor.

Originally Posted by gvarndell

You have a selling job ahead of you and, as hard as it may be to accept, I'm trying to help you.

It's not difficult to accept at all.

I'm certain that Dean didn't get up in front of a group of enthusiastic students, mentors, and sponsors with the intent of offending them. However, having taken a step back and given it some time, I couldn't and still can't figure out what else he could have meant besides "students, don't be like those people" -- and I can't imagine how "those people" wouldn't be offended by such a remark.

Originally Posted by gvarndell

But don't they say that every year -- no matter what words Dean chooses?

I could have started the thread with a quip about speech length (at 27 minutes of Dean-only time, it was a record for brevity, and should have been a third of that), but I wanted people to take this seriously.

As for letting Dean know how his remarks were received, that letter is already in the works.

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

It's not difficult to accept at all.

I apologize for assuming that you wouldn't. That was presumptuous.
You do make this into a dilemma.
How does one urge young people to better themselves without implying better than what?
I hope you are able to keep your sponsors and mentors.

[MooreteP]

Landscaper, Car Washer, Corn-Detasseler, Dishwasher/Busboy/Waiter, Bagger/Sacker/Restocker/Butcher-Shop Cleaner, Drugstore worker, Draughtsman before CAD, Inspection (NDE) Engineer Intern, Reactor Engineer, Bureaucrat, Physics Teacher, Robotics Mentor.

I can't add too much new to this thread. Wayne TenBrink said it best.
I still use all of these skills season-to season, at home, work, and play.

In my current avocation as a physics teacher, I engineer minds, which is harder than I expected as machines are far more predictable and easier to dissect.
Four times a year we assign physics projects that have a tendency to invert the class hierarchy. Those that can invent, but may not be great test-takers, shine. Those that excel at tests, find themselves in unfamiliar territory. Both benefit from the experience. (In creating these projects, I get to be my own GDC, designing for a diversity of outcomes, with the usual experience of learning what mistakes I made in designing a challenge.)

My idea here is that no one gets paid to take a test.

I still landscape, serve dinner, wash dishes and cars, bag my own groceries, draw, inspect students work, pay bureaucrats, and fix stuff.

I don't believe that Dean meant to offend those with exceptional mechanical skills who create inventions from raw materials, but he did.

Cut him some slack. He has done so much to focus our interests and energies on something that exercises our intelligence and skills to be more creative.
Our world is better for this.

[thefro526]

When Dean made this comment during his speech, I actually perked up a bit, and began to listen more attentively. I was a bit offended personally, but I think I was more upset because of how the students on our team may have taken it.

816 is composed of Students from a Vocational Technical School, and while many of them will go onto college, nearly as many of them won't. Most of them are taught a trade in their Career Major that is capable of supporting themselves and their families for the rest of there life, and for someone to tell them that "no one wants to be a manual laborer" is kind of like a kick in the face. Luckily no one (to my knowledge) was upset by this comment, so I can't be too upset either.

[ebarker]

Hey, Don R. - It's time to jump in and do one of those "class-action letters" to Dean via FIRST.

Needing some damage control !!! This is not a light matter as a lot of funding comes into the FIRST system for workforce development.

I grew up in a tough labor intensive environment. I totally understand what that environment is like and the issues and how someone can get offended. I chose not to take offense but it can be tough for someone to pass on this.

I grew up farming. Now I'm an engineer.

I'm not sure I have the intestinal fortitude and smarts to be a farmer. It is way too hard.

Someone mentioned Mike Rowe. I have a recommendation to add to the "class-action letter" and I am perfectly serious about this. Dean needs to bring Mike Rowe onto the cast of characters at FIRST.

Since starting his show "Dirty Jobs" he has had an epiphany about the tough jobs in the world and has become advocate and promoter for those students that want to pursue the tough jobs that are out there.

For example, I for one am not willing to scrambling up the steel and concrete structures that these engineers design.

Ed

[JaneYoung]

I've spent time in recent years, mentoring mentors who are pushing as hard as they can to cross the fine lined barrier of reality for their students, and move them towards their goals of broadening the scope of that reality by encouraging education, the pursuit of education, and the pursuit of dreams that can become reality - through education - when the real world is telling, showing, shoving down the throats of some of these students (and their parents), that education, the pursuit of education, and dreams becoming reality - are trivial and unimportant. We work together to find ways to make education real, valued, and to help students understand that mentors and teachers can be trusted in their knowledge and experience. The students must trust us enough to know they can board a plane to a distant event, leaving everything they know, and will come back with a broader understanding and awareness of their place in the world, in our society, and in the culture that we are helping to create.

These mentors and teachers are striving to help students take that step towards a high school diploma and move on towards submitting that college application - as first generation high school graduates and college students. They ask a lot. They push hard. They sweat. Many students in FIRST know and see what is called, manual labor. Many have respect for it because it is what feeds and clothes them.

Yes, what we are doing in FIRST is important regarding the science and technology side of things - but digging down deep, uncovering hidden talent, dreams, ideas, tenacity, intelligence, and opportunity - are just as important. Especially in the hearts of the mentors, teachers, and students that are moving the road blocks to the path that leads to discovering the value of education - through sheer guts and determination.

Come to Texas. I can introduce you to some incredible mentors, teachers, and students - who are grappling with this daily. Come to Texas and join us.

Jane

[Andrew Schreiber]

One of the things that has always struck me about Dean is he seems to bite the hand that feeds him. On one hand he grovels and begs for support the other he makes snide remarks about them. Take for example politicians, he grovels and begs for support but in the same breath he bad mouths politics and says they aren't the solution. Now he is making remarks about the group of people he wants all of us to be like; hard working people. Shouldn't he be holding them up as an example? They are breaking their backs so that his vision can be realized. How are they any different than the field reset people? Are we going to be disparaging them next?

On the other hand Dean is right. Not to insult manual laborers in any way but for a person who is able to do more manual labor is a waste. If for the formative years of his life Andy Baker was told, "Manual labor is all you can do" we might all be spending a lot more time building gearboxes. Imagine what we would have lost just because we didn't encourage those who can do to do.

In short, I don't know what to tell you. I can see both sides of this comment. Isn't the goal of FIRST to have people look up to engineers and scientists as role models? How can we do that without saying that these professions are somehow better than others. You cannot put someone on a pedestal as a role model without first saying that they are better than others, by saying that you are saying that others are somehow inferior.

[Jack Jones]

In short, I don't know what to tell you. I can see both sides of this comment. Isn't the goal of FIRST to have people look up to engineers and scientists as role models? How can we do that without saying that these professions are somehow better than others. You cannot put someone on a pedestal as a role model without first saying that they are better than others, by saying that you are saying that others are somehow inferior.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I do this to give kids an opportunity that I never had. I do not do it because I want to be a hero or role model; and I do not do it in order to produce the next generation of elitist jerks!

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

I don't know about the rest of you, but I do this to give kids an opportunity that I never had. I do not do it because I want to be a hero or role model; and I do not do it in order to produce the next generation of elitist jerks!

"To transform our culture by creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders."

Dean Kamen, Founder

To me that reads as though engineers like yourself should be role models and people we look up to. I always looked up to the engineers when I was a student, heck, I still do. I've always felt that was what FIRST was about, connecting students with mentors who can serve to inspire and guide them along a path they might not otherwise have known. To do that you have to be a role model not just some bum off the street. You have to show the students that what you do is every bit as awesome as what their favorite athlete does.

[mwtidd]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

If for the formative years of his life Andy Baker was told, "Manual labor is all you can do" we might all be spending a lot more time building gearboxes. Imagine what we would have lost just because we didn't encourage those who can do to do.

Your example of Andy Baker is an interesting one, I believe his greatest success was not as an engineer but as an entrepreneur. I believe that the FIRST community stresses engineering but falls short on entrepreneurship.

This fact is ironic too considering that entrepreneurial skills are the skills required to accomplish all of Dean's homework. However, in spite of this fact, the program still emphasizes engineering. I believe that entrepreneurship is a banner that would unite all those who support FIRST, from the manual laborer, to the engineer, to the politician.

FIREE anyone? (For Inspiration and Recognition of Engineering and Entrepreneurship )

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by lineskier

Your example of Andy Baker is an interesting one, I believe his greatest success was not as an engineer but as an entrepreneur. I believe that the FIRST community stresses engineering but I think it falls short on entrepreneurship.

This fact is ironic too considering that entrepreneurial skills are the skills required to accomplish all of Dean's homework. However, in spite of this fact, the program still emphasizes engineering. I believe that entrepreneurship is a banner that would unite all those who support FIRST, from the manual laborer, to the engineer, to the politician.

FIREE anyone? (For Inspiration and Recognition of Engineering and Entrepreneurship )

I have to agree and explain my choice of Andy Baker. I am making some assumptions. I do not know much about Mr Baker's formative years. He may have only been told that working as a line worker for GM was his only option. I HONESTLY don't know. He was chosen not because of his success with AndyMark but because of his sheer impact on FIRST.

(Does anyone have any good rules for remembering how to spell entrepreneurship? I really cannot spell that word without spell check.)