Championship 2010 - Atlanta - Your Thoughts Please?

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Ed is right. the GA Dome staff had a poster in each elevator of which badges could and could not go in that elevator. It's truly unfortunate that they couldn't make an exception for those in wheelchairs or with strollers, but those are the rules, and like Ed said, they could be fired for breaking those rules. I'm sure it's something to take into consideration with the St. Louis staff.

And learning the right lessons for next year is is the important thing here, I think.
Does anybody think that, in their determination to keep the riffraff out of the VIP areas, FIRST intended that people in wheelchairs should have to grovel for permission to use an elevator?
I don't.
I think FIRST assumed that common sense and decency would prevail amongst the event staff - which it obviously didn't.
If my elderly mother-in-law is able to join us in St. Louis next year, I hope she will not be told she needs to climb 2 flights of stairs simply because she is not a VIP.
The "I was just doin' my job" thing doesn't really settle well with me on this.

[Tom Line]

Second, and I only offer this up because it was discussed amongst my students, we did not feel the language used was as inclusive as it could have been for the international attendees. From the launch to the closing ceremonies, we found the message of many of the FIRST speakers to be very United States centric.

The challenges facing the world are pretty much the same no matter what country you are from. Poverty. Disease. Clean water. Violence. Most of the messages Dean supplied in his speech could be applied to any country - from Brazil to the US to Australia to England. When I looked above the podium and saw the dozens of flags hanging there I considered just how much reach FIRST has.

Did you notice the different accents of the diffent speakers? I did and wondered if it had been done on purpose. I certainly hope it was, because it's another reminder just how small the world is and how big FIRST can be. I don't think they need to modify their words. I thought the message was spot on. I think they sent an excellent message when a team like the Panteras won a major award.

Don't focus on the fact that he used the US as an example. He lives here. In fact, most all of FIRST lives here. That doesn't make the message any less applicable.

If you want to feel included, just look at the flags above the stage and realize just how inclusive this whole thing called FIRST really is.

[Ryan Gordon]

Originally Posted by ChristinaR

As a couple folks have already mentioned, some teams do seem to like using a team media badge to have an extra mentor or student on the floor. I personally spotted a few. I think it's unfortunate that teams choose to "cheat" like that, and don't even care to hide it (not carrying a camera of any variety). It's especially bad to see those with the badges with their hands inside the robot making adjustments. What does this say to the students on the team about playing fair?

Is that really the spirit of FIRST? Isn't it more about being able to have fun and play with a working robot?

I know I would not want to compete in FIRST and put in all that sweat, energy, time, and money if that's the kind of connotation being portrayed to the students.

Let me also point out that if that is the case being made, subjection based on ID, then are you saying that it okay that a captain or a human player or a driver goes out and makes adjustments after they place it on the field? Why is the politic here being limited to media badges?

Should FIRST just disallow anyone touching the robot at all, except placement on the field and to turn it on, if this is the point being made?

Now that being said, this was the first time our team went to the nationals and I was very pleased overall in terms of how well the logistics were prepared and executed. I know I had a blast in the grand scheme of things.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Ryan Gordon

Is that really the spirit of FIRST? Isn't it more about being able to have fun and play with a working robot?

I know I would not want to compete in FIRST and put in all that sweat, energy, time, and money if that's the kind of connotation being portrayed to the students.

Let me also point out that if that is the case being made, subjection based on ID, then are you saying that it okay that a captain or a human player or a driver goes out and makes adjustments after they place it on the field? Why is the politic here being limited to media badges?

The focus is on media badges because those badges are intended for team media and are not intended for people working on the robot. If it was a "floor pass" or something of the sort perhaps things would be different.

If we openly allow people holding these passes to work on the robots, then we will be getting a lot less pictures out of these events as every competitive team will be replacing their media person with a pit crew member.

Members of the drive team have drive team badges which are distinct from the Media badges. Drive team members have always been allowed to work on the robot.

It's not that people don't want everyone to have a working robot, it's that they want to avoid an arms race of "how many pit crew members can we get on the field using various badges and credentials". Drive team and badged Pit Crew members work on the robot on the field, period. Keeps things simple and under control.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by gvarndell

And learning the right lessons for next year is is the important thing here, I think.
Does anybody think that, in their determination to keep the riffraff out of the VIP areas, FIRST intended that people in wheelchairs should have to grovel for permission to use an elevator?
I don't.
I think FIRST assumed that common sense and decency would prevail amongst the event staff - which it obviously didn't.
If my elderly mother-in-law is able to join us in St. Louis next year, I hope she will not be told she needs to climb 2 flights of stairs simply because she is not a VIP.
The "I was just doin' my job" thing doesn't really settle well with me on this.

Would getting some one fired from their job in this economy sit better with you?
They have to stand there for hours handling hundreds of people all day long. If you have a problem with the standing orders they were given take it up with the management instead of putting some poor wage slave on the spot and jeopardizing their employment. That's why mangers are in those positions so they can make those decisions instead of the employees who are only supposed to enforce the rules.

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Would getting some one fired from their job in this economy sit better with you?

I don't think I advocated for any action that would get someone fired.
Nor did I indicate I might find it satisfying if someone had been fired.
FIRST did not (I hope) expect the event staff to be so rigidly inconsiderate.
My only point here is that, next year, they need to anticipate exactly that.
Which is sad.

[Astreios]

Having attended a FIRST championship for the first time, I thought the competition was wonderful. It was obviously much bigger than the regionals and it was nice seeing what some of the best teams did.

I thought the venue was quite nice, especially with the pit area being so big. It was nice not sitting being in one place for the entire time. It was nice to be able to talk to so many people, as well. Especially those who participate in FIRST in the different areas of the world. Everyone was so polite.

I did find it interesting that there was a lot less cheering than at regionals I've been to, though. Maybe it's just my imagination. o.o

[ChristinaR]

Originally Posted by Ryan Gordon

Is that really the spirit of FIRST?

Playing by the rules? I think so.
FIRST spirit involves playing fair.

Originally Posted by Ryan Gordon

Isn't it more about being able to have fun and play with a working robot?

I entirely agree. However, not all teams see it in such a way. Many maintain an "in it to win it" attitude, which sometimes causes them to bend or break rules. Several teams I saw misusing a badge were in no danger of having a broken robot, but instead chose to have a technical mentor down on the floor to tweak the 'bot.

Originally Posted by Ryan Gordon

I know I would not want to compete in FIRST and put in all that sweat, energy, time, and money if that's the kind of connotation being portrayed to the students.

I don't understand. FIRST has designated a team media badge for team media use. I think it portrays the wrong ideas to a team's students to say it's OK to do anything to win.

Originally Posted by Ryan Gordon

Let me also point out that if that is the case being made, subjection based on ID, then are you saying that it okay that a captain or a human player or a driver goes out and makes adjustments after they place it on the field? Why is the politic here being limited to media badges?

Should FIRST just disallow anyone touching the robot at all, except placement on the field and to turn it on, if this is the point being made?

Members of the drive team could always work on the robot.

If a team could use a media badge anyway they wish, there would be no media. FIRST has a team media badge so that teams can have a photographer or videographer down on the field to document the team. Good photos can be especially helpful in promotional materials for teams looking to get new sponsors, or keep old ones. I've heard stories direct from mentors about how good pictures have helped get funding. I would hate to see a team miss out on a chance to get pictures of the team in action at the Championship because other team members decided that the media badge is best used by someone who can help fix the robot if needed.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by Rob

Negatives:

It seems that the four divisions field crews have a "race" each year to see who can finish their qual matches the earliest, with the prize bieng invited to be the field crew on einstein. I may be way of base here but from my observations it appears that this is the case. While this may be a good way to keep the volunteers entertained, I strongly feel that this creates a situation where rules and policies can be bent and the experience of teams can suffer. Teams work really hard to get to the Championship event. This "race" against the other divisions can detract from the teams experience and lead teams to feel as if the field crew believes the teams experience comes second to accelerating the schedule to finish early.

FIRST and foremost because I keep forgetting to type it in my views are solely based on my personal experience as an Team Alumni / Volunteer and not on behalf of FIRST.

As far as this goes you have to keep rotating things in the back of your mind b/c what you say here is kind of loaded in a way.

Scheduling: FIRST handles what they want ---> FMS manages match scheduling
---> Show Ready manages the event as a whole and attempts to keep the whole event on time by constantly adjusting FIRST's expectations as needed.

So no matter which field finishes first you still need to wait for the rest before you can move onto the next phase of the event. FIRST would rather hear the fields are running on time safely then ahead / behind schedule which would cause a concern for safety all b/c a field thinks by finishing first they will go to Einstein. Carelessness and sacrificing a teams competing experience is not acceptable.

Field Races: I feel thats untrue. Division Volunteers are encouraged to work at a set pace according to FIRST's expectations on how quickly a field can be reset but not rush or bend the rules / policies to get the job done quicker. Think of it as 4 Regionals going on at once. Each field has their own FTA, Supv and Queuing Personnel etc... So each field operates independently of one another like a Regional Event and of course will naturally operate differently then one another. At the end of the last match or just before pairings The Supv's of their Fields gathers their respective crews and selects "X" amount of volunteers for the Einstein Crew (at least thats how they did it in '05 and '07). Those chosen were the ones who can reliably repair minor defects in the field w/o causing a distraction and those who can effectively and safely help move teams on and off the field. Field reset only takes 2 minutes at max. The rest of the time is used for Robot Linkup and last minute debugging if required. So this years reset expectations are a little faster in of itself and not the doing of the volunteers & how quickly they worked - It's just how the game was desgined. Volunteer as a Field Repair / Reset Crew member and you'll see what I mean. If I'm not mistaken the turnaround time between matches should've been 6 minutes + match run time. Thats pretty comfy. In the past it used to be a little more reset time due to the complexities of the game (more objects to be scored + different methods for scoring which = more items that have the ability to break). There's only 12 balls on the field this year - we just clear them out of your way so you don't trip and you place them before you leave your robot. So this years reset expectations were simple and quick from the get go. Next year the fields might not run as fast due to change in game and deisgn of key game features. So you have to take all of that in account. Thats probably (and I use that word loosely b/c no one person can really find out why FIRST does what they do) why FIRST ran this reocrd amount of matches this year - the game was simple enough to reset and they figured they could add 1/2 a day to the Qual. Schedule b/c of this years game features and # of teams competing - next year you might be back to Fri and Sat only competing and have a slower match cycle time. I've done Field Repair / Reset / Setup / Break Down / Queuing on all levels and FTAA - All jobs which revolve around a set schedule that FIRST outlines. At times you feel rushed but that could be because your behind 45 minutes and looking for innovative ways to regain some of that time lost for whatever reason. Sometimes it's unrecoverable but when ever I was told to help in the speeding up process we were never told to bend or break pre-set policies. We were always told to do the best we can to be on point when the buzzer sounds. As a team member you get to have fun playing at the event and experience everything - As a volunteer part of your particular job crew you get to experience how to work as one so that the team members can have a good time in experiencing everything. Nothing more nothing less

=) Hope your '10 off-season is awesome. ^_^

[thefro526]

Last year following the Championship I made this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...697#post856697

This year when my team didn't make eliminations I decided to do a bit of first hand research to see how easy it was to walk out into the dome during eliminations, and I found out it's really really easy. I found that all it takes is a Drive team badge (Doesn't have to be a team in the Eliminations) or a media pass. One of those two things will get you almost anywhere on the dome floor.

I don't know if there's an easy solution to this problem though. The only way I could see limiting access to the dome floor would be to give a list of all teams involved in the eliminations to the volunteers, and request that they get rid of anyone not involved.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by thefro526

I don't know if there's an easy solution to this problem though. The only way I could see limiting access to the dome floor would be to give a list of all teams involved in the eliminations to the volunteers, and request that they get rid of anyone not involved.

Colored dots on the buttons and passes might work.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Colored dots on the buttons and passes might work.

You might be onto something. The only downfall to dots is the possible confusion with the Coach badge. New, brightly colored badges may also do the trick too, FIRST could give 7 Blank badges to each team involved in the Elimination matches, and those teams could label the badges appropriately.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by gvarndell

I don't think I advocated for any action that would get someone fired.
Nor did I indicate I might find it satisfying if someone had been fired.
FIRST did not (I hope) expect the event staff to be so rigidly inconsiderate.

Early on, the staff did permit non-badged people to be escorted through the "badge only" checkpoints when it seemed appropriate. Later, this practice was explicitly prohibited by the people in charge. Someone who failed to enforce the restricted access policy would be in danger of losing his job.

[musicspeaks]

I think it would be great if there were screens posted out on the backdrop of each field of each of the other fields. Although, in some ways, this would be pointless and distracting, in others, it'd also be beneficial.
We do not get to see what is happening on the other fields due to scouting, but between matches, it'd be great to catch a glimpse of what is happening out there. And if it became a factor of it being distracting, it could be played only between matches, like the "commercials" they played this year, or in times of "field faults" where there is a little more down time.
Another GREAT time to see other matches (actually, where one of our mentors and I noticed the need for it) was during the eliminations--even if just scores were posted. We had a few scouters on each field, who couldn't even see how our own robot was doing, and we wanted to catch some of the action elsewhere as well.

Just a thought. maybe this causes more problems than it's worth, but I figured I'd toss it out there.

On a side note: THANKS FIRST! and everyone involved! This was my first and last year on my team. (Darn, joining as a senior. As soon as you fall in love with it, it goes away) It was an amazing experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything! I cannot believe there are so many people who have no idea what this organization is about, much like myself prior to this year, and I am going to be sure to continue spreading this new FIRST addiction of mine.

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Early on, the staff did permit non-badged people to be escorted through the "badge only" checkpoints when it seemed appropriate. Later, this practice was explicitly prohibited by the people in charge. Someone who failed to enforce the restricted access policy would be in danger of losing his job.

By which people in charge? FIRST or arena management?
I'm just not getting the apparent notion that being in danger of losing one's job justifies being insensitive to the needs of people with disabilities.
And I'll say this... if some elderly person had fallen down the stairs, or died of a heart attack while climbing the stairs, because Joe-I'm-Just-Doing-My-Job wouldn't let that person on the elevator, Joe would have found himself between jobs anyway -- as a scapegoat.
Again...
I never suggested that anyone should do anything that would cause a firing or that I would derive pleasure from anyone getting fired.
And I never dismissed the possibility that insubordination could result in a firing.
None of that means I have to be complacent about the idiocy of it all.