On the Importance of the Backup Teams

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

That's not what the rules said... (although I don't doubt that is what actually happened).

Like I said, we were surprised when we were told after the fact, because we thought we would get the robot described in your post. That team was told to pack up after the division finished.

[mrmummert]

Hi...

Kyle the FTAA from the Virginia regional has already mentioned what happened with the back up teams at VCU. We at first had thought of packing up and were the last team to get re-inspected that I know of, but decided to keep the robot out and wait.We started out 7th on the list and by the time the final rounds came up so many of the other back ups had packed up we were told we were then 4th.We were never needed. Had we been called we would have gone. We did'nt start to pack until the next to last final match. We decided that by then if we were not needed we probably would'nt have been called anyway. (I can't recall who the three teams were who were ahead of us.)We were also a back up in Atlanta in 2005 in the Curie finals and although robots went down and others were called we were still 3 away from being called when the finals were over.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Really? In 2007 we (the Alliance captian of the finalists on Curie) had to stay on the floor of the Georgia dome to the be the backup bot while our two alliance partners went to pack up.

Same thing, except we were the finalist alliance captain from Newton in 2007. Like Joe said, I believe this changed in 2008.

[Alpha Beta]

Wasn't sure wether to make this a new topic or add it to this thread which discussed the issue a bit.

Potential Problem:

This was our teams first time being a division finalist. After losing in the division finals our team was asked to stick around as a potential backup for Einstein. I was a bit shocked when I realized how the rules for backup team selection on Einstein were so different from the division rules.

9.6.2 Championship Backup Teams
If an ALLIANCE has not previously brought in a BACKUP TEAM, and a ROBOT becomes disabled during the Championship Playoffs and can not continue, the ALLIANCE may request a BACKUP TEAM. The ALLIANCE CAPTAIN will be presented the option of having one of the three lead Division Finalist TEAMS, chosen randomly, from their division join the ALLIANCE as a BACKUP TEAM.

Does anyone else find this backup system a bit weird? In the division if a robot breaks you get a robot that everyone passed on. One that you could have picked but chose not to. On Einstein if a robot breaks you have a 2 out of 3 chance of having one of the best robots from your division, and assuming that you are the #1 alliance even the #23 robot could be better than the #24 robot selected with their 3rd pick.

Robot robustness is something that every championship alliance should strive for. It is a lot of matches in a very short amount of time. Having a robot fail is normally a bad thing. Why is their a potential benefit for having your worst robot on your alliance fail? Surely no one would intentionally damage a robot for a backup upgrade, but that potential exploit exists in this system.

I did find some discussion of this issue on a closed thread from 2007.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...stein+b ackup

Here is a specific post that highlights the issue.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=32

and “If an alliance decided it was in their best interest, they could make a robot very inoperable very quickly.”

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=51

Possible Solution:

This is one of several reasons why I would like to champion the idea suggested by Dustin “TheFro” Benedict.

“Also, I'd like to see FIRST institute 4 team alliances for the Championship. I don't think adding an extra round of selections would be so detrimental to the schedule that it'd be impossible, and I believe it would bring an entirely new dimension to Eliminations if an Alliance can switch a team out at random. This also allows alliance members to fix their robots and miss a match, without being penalized with not being able to play for the rest of the tournament.”

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=58

Apparently a system like this has existed with FIRST in the past. Our team is too young to have any personal experience with it though.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=60

I’ve got some ideas on how to validate the 4th member of the alliance earning their share of the Championship.

“I would add that the division winners cannot take their 4th robot to Einstein unless they played them in at least one game during the division elimination rounds... No other subs will be offered for failed robots.

Any team taking a 4th robot to Einstein must play them in at least 1 game to win the world championship. This would mean that in the Einstein finals the winner of the first match would have to sub in their 4th robot if they have not played them previously on Einstein. If that happens to make them lose then their opponents would be forced into a similar situation if they have not played their 4th robot earlier. This would include a robot that broke in division play.”

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=87

So, anybody else up for a modification to how we do the championship? It already has different rules than a regular regional. I’m hoping this idea would make it even better.

[Tom Line]

I don't know how many people knew about it, but the Hot alliance was having serious issues during the finals.

On Newton, in the second match of the finals against us, 294 stopped functioning and it was game over for the #1 alliance in that match.

DURING the finals, if you were watching carefully, you would have seen team members from our team (1718), 16, and 343 sprinting for bumpers, batteries, and other things behind the curtains. None of us had packed up and all of the 3 teams were told to be ready to go on the field because of continued red-alliance issues (I heard it was watchdog issues but I can't say for sure because I didn't see it with my own eyes).

I would have felt horrible had they had to run one of us. 343 had some mechanical issues in elims, 16 had kicker cable issues, and our motors were so hot after 7 consecutive matches that the robot was barely turning. I would have loved to be on einstein, but frankly I don't think the red alliance would have won with one of us - we didn't have the chemistry they had developed through the elims.

If we had been called on, they would have randomly selected one of the three teams from our alliance.

[DonRotolo]

We were very happy that 1421 hadn't packed up when 888 became inoperative during the semifinals on Curie. We got to the finals with them, and 888 gets silver too!

[jspatz1]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

We were very happy that 1421 hadn't packed up when 888 became inoperative during the semifinals on Curie. We got to the finals with them, and 888 gets silver too!

1421 was awesome. Not the anti-496 defensive pick that we had in 888, but they were stellar in the home zone against 1538 in the semis. Who knows if we would have made it to the final without them. And who knows what might have been if 888 could have taken on 469 in the final. I'm glad both teams got to share the silver with us.

[Chris]

Tom,

It was us that came moments from pulling ourselves in between Einstein final match one and Final match 2. We stripped out the sprocket to wheel attachment on one of our middle four wheels. That basically disables that wheel, and the pivoting wheel that attaches to it. Having climbed the bump a few times at the scrimmage with not all 8 wheels being powered we felt confident we could continue playing at a high level, but left it up to the alliance captains on whether or not to pull us, or let us play. (this wheel imbalance helps explain why our auto didn't work in the last match). I'm very glad that the elected to let us play.

[Josh Drake]

I saw you guys working hard on something and joked with our driver that we might go in. Then the quer came over and it was all seriousness. I would have loved to had the opportunity, but glad you were able to bask in the glory with the team you had fought beside the whole way. Again, good job!

I like the idea of a four team alliance at championships. That way you could get different teams that played differently and bring in the best team to counter your opponent. When we talked stategy with 1718 and 16 I thought they were going to want us to play some defense because of the tank treads. The offensive strategy worked great, and the defense was there when needed. You could pick up a 4th partner and use their strengths when needed.

[thefro526]

One of the reasons that I'm so fond of 4 team alliances at an event like the Championship is that it gets more teams involved than the current system. Sure, you could say the backup teams "are involved" in the eliminations but it's really not the same as being an Alliance member.

The other reason I suggest going to 4 team alliances is so that a team won't ever have to make the decision between not running and losing or sitting out and not having the opportunity to play again. In a case like 177's they would've been able to sit out a match and properly repair their drive train without the use of a timeout or anything of the sort, and once it was fixed they would've been able to play again.

[Josh Drake]

It may also help the eliminations go faster due to fewer time outs needed. Break and you get a full round of quarters to fix it, or less. You may still need the time out in the semi-finals or finals, but if you have robot #4 ready to get on the field it may go smoother. Of course this is an idea for the championship. Some regionals may not have 32 robots functioning come eliminations.

[DonRotolo]

Interesting idea: A 4 team alliance for eliminations, with 3 teams on the field, where you can swap a robot in or out for any given match. Perhaps for repairs, perhaps for a specific strategy. Someone should mention that idea to the GDC.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

Interesting idea: A 4 team alliance for eliminations, with 3 teams on the field, where you can swap a robot in or out for any given match. Perhaps for repairs, perhaps for a specific strategy. Someone should mention that idea to the GDC.

You youngin's with your 2005 rookie years.

In 2004, the final year of 2v2, three teams made up each eliminations alliance everywhere--regionals, Championship, you name it. Teams could play any two teams they chose in the first match, but whoever sat out the first match had to play in the second (working or not).

I'd love to see that make a return, at least on the Championship level.

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by Billfred

You youngin's with your 2005 rookie years.

In 2004, the final year of 2v2, three teams made up each eliminations alliance everywhere--regionals, Championship, you name it. Teams could play any two teams they chose in the first match, but whoever sat out the first match had to play in the second (working or not).

I'd love to see that make a return, at least on the Championship level.

You beat me to it; I was about to mention the same thing. They could do 4 teams with the same rule that all must play at least 1 match per round, but you can swap in and out as you choose. It would definitely make things more interesting...not to mention, the extra 8 robots that would get a chance to extend their Saturday a little bit.

[Peter Johnson]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

On Newton, in the second match of the finals against us, 294 stopped functioning and it was game over for the #1 alliance in that match.

We lost our CAN bus connection in that match; first time that had happened since the last qual match of the LA regional (when our pneumatics came loose when going over a bump and slammed down on a CANbus connector tab, neatly disconnecting it). We had electrical-taped down all of our CAN bus connectors but apparently one had worked its way loose over 15+ matches in Atlanta. We were very sure to push down on each connection before every match after that mishap!

Next year we're thinking about hot gluing the connectors in (maybe in combination with a more secure connector to still allow unplug). We're also considering going back to PWMs for the drivetrain so at least we can drive if CANbus fails.

Side note: 294 used 7 black Jaguars on our robot, all hooked up via CAN, for the entire season (no Victors). Other than the 2 CAN bus disconnections (neither directly Jaguar-related), we never had a Jaguar issue, and never needed to replace one throughout the season (and obviously had no issues pushing them hard on Einstein!).