Einstein Finals: Curie (469, 1114, 2041) vs. Newton (67, 177, 294)

[TEE]

The final matches were really close. I think Curie probably would have won it if they had strategized differently; as it was, they had nobody playing defense in either match, and 2041 stayed in the offensive zone throughout both matches. (In the second match, 2041 got stuck in the goal during autonomous, and remained there for over half of the match, until 1114 came and helped them out, which was a fluke in favor of Newton) Curie should have had every robot except 469 focus on moving balls from the far and middle zones to the offensive zone (scoring when possible, which would have been often for 1114), where there would be only one defender, and then go to town on scoring; every ball except those 294 would be able to clear would remain in that zone to score, while Newton's offensive, 67 and 177 would be starved of balls. At first, they would not have scored as much (because 294 would have an easier time blocking), but in the long-run, the tide of the match would turn towards Curie, as 294 would have trouble blocking successive shots from 469 and 1114, considering 294 would also have to deal with 2041. The fact that many of 469's shots wouldn't make it (because of the number of robots in the offensive zone) wouldn't matter, as 1114 and 2041 together would have been able to get many of those shots past 294.

This strategy takes into account the fact that 469's robot not only scores quickly, but that it also locks balls in the offensive zone. If it turned out that most of 469's shots made it past 294, then 1114 would be able to go back to midfield, or the far zone and fight for any balls 294 had cleared.

This all goes to show how much strategy plays in robotics. Newton, 67, 177 and 294, had a better strategy, and won it all because of it.

That said, could 2041 kick over the bump? Was 1114 able to hang with 469 expanded?

Also, looking over what I've written, it seems I may not have given due credit to Newton; 67, 177, and 294: you played wonderfully! Curie may have tried the strategy above and you could possibly have prevented them from pulling it off!

Any thoughts or comments?

[Chris is me]

You underestimate what 294 and 254 could have done if left alone. Playing defense the way they did and running the cycle with 5 balls in it was probably the right move. 1114 only needed to throw one or two balls out of the 67 faux-cycle to gain essentially permanent ball advantage. I think they had the right strategy, just execution problems. Plus they had to play with an alliance that had 177 as their third best scorer. I mean, wow.

In my opinion, 67 won because they had 177, and 1114 didn't do as good of a job denying balls in the opponent's zone as they needed to do to make their cycle excel. The second match where they had a much better chance due to a high scoring auto was when 2041 got stuck in the goal.

[TEE]

I should have qualified what I said; I think Curie would have stood a better chance, not that they would have won in any situation. I agree that 67 + 177 + 294 = extremely strong alliance.

[jblay]

I actually had a similar thought but I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to start such a thread.

In my opinion the problem with the Curie alliance was that they had 1114 put balls from the middle into the home zone and with 294 being in that zone they simply took those balls that 1114 put there and put them into their home zone for 67 and 177 to score and with no bot clearing that zone those balls were free to sit there and give Newton the ball control until they decided to score. In my opinion 1114's role on that alliance shouldn't have been putting in the ball from the middle and pushing them in but making sure all the balls stayed in their home zone for 469 to cycle with the help of 2041. It also didn't hurt the Curie alliance's scoring ability that 67 could hang after the buzzer.

This was the initial flaw I saw in the Curie alliance and the only reason that Archimedes didn't manage to capitalize on this was that the hangers on their alliance weren't the ones who played the two closer zones. Either 233 or 254 needed to stay in the back zone and that alliance didn't have the advantage of the double hang unless they freed up the far zone at the end of the match. 3357 was a great close zone scoring bot and did a great job throughout the competition but I don't think they were the right fit for that alliance. With all the talent on Archimedes I think that 233 and 254 should have picked up either a close zone robot that could hang or a robot that could solidly play the far zone.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by jblay

This was the initial flaw I saw in the Curie alliance and the only reason that Archimedes didn't manage to capitalize on this was that the hangers on their alliance weren't the ones who played the two closer zones. Either 233 or 254 needed to stay in the back zone and that alliance didn't have the advantage of the double hang unless they freed up the far zone at the end of the match. 3357 was a great close zone scoring bot and did a great job throughout the competition but I don't think they were the right fit for that alliance. With all the talent on Archimedes I think that 233 and 254 should have picked up either a close zone robot that could hang or a robot that could solidly play the far zone.

I wonder if having 233 and 254 switch places would have worked better. The Poofs had a faster hang anyway, so why not put them in the easiest hanging position? Maybe a more versatile pick like 118 would have worked better for the alliance than their rookie striker. Who knows?

All this talk is fun.

[Peter Johnson]

What was interesting about 294's alliance was we essentially had 3 midfielders with slightly different strengths, although we could each play any place on the field (and did both across matches and even in a single match).

294: excellent midfielder/defense (no hang)
67: excellent midfielder/forward (w/hang)
177: great all-arounder (w/hang)

In the quals, 294 mostly sniped (very effectively) from the midfield, and occasionally played forward to clean up (we never played defense in the quals). As in the elims, we always started in the back in quals because of our consistent 3-ball autonomous (although in the quals we usually kicked 3, then went over the bump to gain a head start in the midfield).

In the Newton QFs, 294 played forward, 67 played mid, and 177 played far/defense. It worked, but was uncomfortable for all of us. We switched it up after that. It was the perfect combo of teams in the Einstein finals because of reasons already stated: 294 couldn't hang, but was good at defense, thus freeing up 67 to play forward (amazing to watch) and 177 to play mid, and freeing up both of them to hang. It also helped that 294's kicker consistently cleared both bumps, and occasionally even scored from the far zone. Having two hangers on our alliance was key: 2, and especially 4, points is hard to make up in scoring, which we witnessed in the LA finals against 330 & 1717, both of whom are great hangers.

Interesting footnote to all this: I'm not sure this Newton alliance would have happened without 294 being the #1 seed and 67 (#2 seed) accepting us... note only 12 seeding points separated us in the end, so the reverse seeding could have easily happened! While I don't want to speak for 67, 294 would not have been an obvious first pick for 67 (gutsy but not obvious like our pick of them was). I'm thinking it would have been more likely for 67 to have picked 971... what different matchups that would have resulted in, particularly in Newton elims (anyone want to fantasize the picks & matchups had 67 been #1 and 294 been #2?).

[Cory]

Originally Posted by jblay

This was the initial flaw I saw in the Curie alliance and the only reason that Archimedes didn't manage to capitalize on this was that the hangers on their alliance weren't the ones who played the two closer zones. Either 233 or 254 needed to stay in the back zone and that alliance didn't have the advantage of the double hang unless they freed up the far zone at the end of the match. 3357 was a great close zone scoring bot and did a great job throughout the competition but I don't think they were the right fit for that alliance. With all the talent on Archimedes I think that 233 and 254 should have picked up either a close zone robot that could hang or a robot that could solidly play the far zone.

We lost because we played poorly, not because one of our two hangers was in the back. We simply could not get free from 2041 who did a fantastic job neutralizing us.

We knew exactly what we needed to do to break 469's cycle. We watched every single video there is of them. We studied how 217/67 won (and lost) against them. We spent hours practicing in our lab against a looper. We knew exactly where the balls were going to go...we just could not get to them. Again, 2041 did an unbelievable job locking us up for the duration of both matches.

In the finals I thought 1114 should have played 67 exactly how they played us. Versus us they stayed in the middle and fought 233 for control of midfield. 233 did an admirable job and held their own, but 1114 definitely slowed them down, as well as put a few more balls in their own cycle.

Against 67 1114 played home zone almost exclusively and as a result 67 was in the midfield completely uncontested and scored nearly every single shot they took.

[Greg Marra]

Originally Posted by Cory

Against 67 1114 played home zone almost exclusively and as a result 67 was in the midfield completely uncontested and scored nearly every single shot they took.

With 469 in position and 2041 neutralizing 294, the game became a 2v1 with 177 and 67 playing against 1114.

[jblay]

Originally Posted by Cory

We lost because we played poorly, not because one of our two hangers was in the back. We simply could not get free from 2041 who did a fantastic job neutralizing us.

We knew exactly what we needed to do to break 469's cycle. We watched every single video there is of them. We studied how 217/67 won (and lost) against them. We spent hours practicing in our lab against a looper. We knew exactly where the balls were going to go...we just could not get to them. Again, 2041 did an unbelievable job locking us up for the duration of both matches.

Although I agree that 2041 played superb defense and them riding up on 254 basically stopped any kind of maneuver 254 could make, 254 still effectively limited 469's cycle. In the first match of the semis, the match was within 2 but 469 was let loose when 254 went over the bump to try and hang and that is where that match was lost in my opinion. If 3357 could hang, that match would have been very close and Archimedes could have taken it. I'm not saying 3357 wasn't awesome, and I'm not saying you guys would have topped Curie with another team, all I'm saying is that 3357 may not have been the perfect fit for the strategy you guys ran, because you essentially left the opposing scoring zone open during the finale.

As a side note I was wondering about something that happened in the first match of the semis. 254 entered the opposing tunnel at the end of the autonomous period to try and prevent 469 from setting up, 469 pushed them out of the tunnel at either the end of autonomous or at the start of teleop. When I was checking out 254's pit I noticed that they have a ratcheting system on their gearboxes to prevent people from pushing them. This ratcheting system looked like it also disengaged to allow 254 to back up. Was the gearbox I saw not from their drive train or did something else happen during that match?

[Lil' Lavery]

2041 playing in the offensive zone was the reason the Curie alliance not only reached the Einstein finals, but reached Einstein at all. Their role was critical to how the alliance played and how they performed all throughout the tournament. I don't think trying to change your strategy dramatically in the final two matches is nearly as easy as you think it is. And that strategy still worked to within inches of victory in both matches.

Does it look ideal in hindsight now that they've lost? No, you have to wonder how it would have changed if they played it differently. But ultimately I think they made the right choice for the circumstances, they were just outperformed at the most critical moment. It's unfortunate for them, but that seems the case. Good execution can often surpass good strategy.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by jblay

As a side note I was wondering about something that happened in the first match of the semis. 254 entered the opposing tunnel at the end of the autonomous period to try and prevent 469 from setting up, 469 pushed them out of the tunnel at either the end of autonomous or at the start of teleop. When I was checking out 254's pit I noticed that they have a ratcheting system on their gearboxes to prevent people from pushing them. This ratcheting system looked like it also disengaged to allow 254 to back up. Was the gearbox I saw not from their drive train or did something else happen during that match?

We forgot that 469 changed to a new autonomous that ends with them fully in the tunnel, so once we were in, we stopped driving forward and promptly got pushed back by them.

The ratchets don't have an effect on normal driving. The only thing they do is prevent the arm from backdriving.

[Eugene Fang]

Originally Posted by jblay

As a side note I was wondering about something that happened in the first match of the semis. 254 entered the opposing tunnel at the end of the autonomous period to try and prevent 469 from setting up, 469 pushed them out of the tunnel at either the end of autonomous or at the start of teleop. When I was checking out 254's pit I noticed that they have a ratcheting system on their gearboxes to prevent people from pushing them. This ratcheting system looked like it also disengaged to allow 254 to back up. Was the gearbox I saw not from their drive train or did something else happen during that match?

I'm pretty sure that those ratchets are for their "Power Take-Off" of their drive transmissions to hang. When they engage their hanger from the drive transmissions, those ratchets keep the robot up after the round ends.

[XaulZan11]

Some one on my team said that the red alliance purposefully missed their shots in autonomous so 1114 would be 'tricked' to going to their close zone early, leaving half the balls for the red alliance to score with undefended. I haven't seen any video, but is this true?

Edit: Ok, I see TBA has the video. While they scored in auto in match 1, they didn't score any in match 2.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by jblay

Although I agree that 2041 played superb defense and them riding up on 254 basically stopped any kind of maneuver 254 could make, 254 still effectively limited 469's cycle. In the first match of the semis, the match was within 2 but 469 was let loose when 254 went over the bump to try and hang and that is where that match was lost in my opinion. If 3357 could hang, that match would have been very close and Archimedes could have taken it. I'm not saying 3357 wasn't awesome, and I'm not saying you guys would have topped Curie with another team, all I'm saying is that 3357 may not have been the perfect fit for the strategy you guys ran, because you essentially left the opposing scoring zone open during the finale.

As a side note I was wondering about something that happened in the first match of the semis. 254 entered the opposing tunnel at the end of the autonomous period to try and prevent 469 from setting up, 469 pushed them out of the tunnel at either the end of autonomous or at the start of teleop. When I was checking out 254's pit I noticed that they have a ratcheting system on their gearboxes to prevent people from pushing them. This ratcheting system looked like it also disengaged to allow 254 to back up. Was the gearbox I saw not from their drive train or did something else happen during that match?

That was the drive gearbox, but the ratchet was used to prevent back drive on the arm. Bad things would happen if you engaged that and drove at the same time. Just ask some of the other 254 members what the early software tests for the arm did to the robot ;-)

We planned for the robot to exit the other side of the tunnel in auto, but 469 beat us there. All and all that particular auto mode (kick 3, block tunnel from far zone) was about 90% done. We never quite finished the part that made the robot hold it's ground. Whoops.

[PerpetualMotion]

I don't think anyone can argue that it was 1114/469's championships to lose. They were favorites going into the weekend, and rolled through just about every alliance they saw in elims without much trouble.

And thats exactly what happened, the Curie alliance lost it. I don't mean to take anything away from the Newton alliance, because even with the Curie alliances failures, it still takes an awesome alliance to beat them.

I think the strategy the Curie alliance used was the right one. Once they have 6 balls in their system, no alliance should be more efficient then 469 at getting the balls in the goal, so let the Newton alliance do what they wanted with the balls they had. Would having an extra ball or two in the system be better? Absolutely, but it probably wasn't worth the effort.

From the first video, it is clear that 469 wasn't hitting the shots they usually make. As a result, 469's efficiency was less than 67 + 177 so surprise surprise, the Newton alliance was able to out score them, barely.

The second match 2041 was stuck in a goal for over half a match. The Curie alliance came within 3 pts of tieing the match which just shows how dominant the Curie strategy is when it worked for 55 seconds. Had 1114 got 2041 out of the goal 15 seconds earlier, it could have been a very different match. Add in the fact that 469 sat in the tower and did nothing for at least 30 seconds when they had no balls in the system. 469 could have got out of the tower and slowed down 67 or even got a ball or two out of their system. Even more, 2041 blocked a 469 shot toward the end of the match. 1114 looked very slow as they went to hang, which leads me to believe they had a bad battery. Had 2041 not blocked the goal, and 1114 had hung, we suddenly have a tie game.

The second final match was ridiculously close given all the challenges the Curie alliance saw. Had that match been a tie or a win for the Curie alliance, I think it would have been very interesting to see the next match or two.