IEEE Article on Importance of Programs like FIRST

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by Ether

Sadly, the problem is, it's your ticket to get in the door.
And once in, promotion opportunities may be limited without that piece of paper.
~

I know, and I shouldn't even hint, on a public forum which is read by (presumably) thousands of young people, that college is a waste of time.
It is for me though, a wonderful irony that several supervisors and managers for whom I previously worked, and who delighted in telling me the "you ain't going nowhere without that sheepskin fella" story, are still where they were then -- and I'm not.

But, go to college kids!.
Really, if you still have that passion and work ethic when you graduate, you'll still be able to capitalize on them.
It'll just take some unlearning.

[Ether]

Originally Posted by gvarndell

It is for me though, a wonderful irony that several supervisors and managers for whom I previously worked, and who delighted in telling me the "you ain't going nowhere without that sheepskin fella" story, are still where they were then -- and I'm not.

Were you promoted within that same company or are you saying you jumped ship to a more pragmatic company that was able to assess and value talent and results more effectively?

Or perhaps you started your own business?


~

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by Ether

Were you promoted within that same company or are you saying you jumped ship to a more pragmatic company that was able to assess and value talent and results more effectively?

Or perhaps you started your own business?

~

Yes.
I've done all.
Right now, and probably until I retire, I work for a great company.
Won't say which but, for an embedded systems engineer, it's about the best company one can work for.

I won't go far as to say I've been lucky -- 100 hour weeks have helped.
I won't go so far as to recommend the path I've taken to young people -- those 100 hour weeks can kill you.
Stay in school kids, then you can do it with only 80 hour weeks....

[RaMoore]

First off, excellent article! Very clearly explained some of the major issues surrounding the standardized testing dilemma... :/

To further in the hijacking of this thread:
I have and still do see some people (of particular talent and drive) able to do well for themselves without a degree (mostly CS), but the vast majority of students are unfortunately not:

1. Experienced (mature) enough without 4 more years of "seasoning"
2. Skilled and driven enough or
3. Lucky enough (to make the right contacts)

I do believe that unfortunately "a degree" vs "talent and experience" is almost never fairly evaluated in almost all large and medium sized companies, and idealistic youth might unknowingly overlook that fact. Unfortunately this falls into the same category as the importance of GPA to a students actual learning, one of those things that VERY easy to judge on and can have an incredibly low correlation to actual performance.

And on a even more tangent note: because after even a few years of working a job a degree is just "a piece of paper" it's important to not overpay for it. Students in my experience rarely are informed on how the cost of their education can have long term effects on their personal financial welfare. If you graduate with little to no debt then your new salary will take you much much farther than with a looming 20k, 50k, or even 80k student loan on you or your family.

College is a huge investment of money, but if you're smart about it, and are frugal with your finances you can graduate in 4-5 years with no debt and a lot more experience having co-oped, interned and done undergraduate research to pay your way through a reasonably priced school. Then, if you've keep your grades up and made a strong network of folks that are impressed with your talent and dedication, then you'll have an easy time of getting a great job, or if you want to go to go for a graduate degree it should be a free ride, even at a fancier school.

I hesitate to say this, but other than a bit more potential job security and hire-ability, if you graduate with tremendous debt and/or it takes you 8 years to finish a 4 year degree, financially you might have been better off without it.

[gvarndell]

Originally Posted by RaMoore

And on a even more tangent note: because after even a few years of working a job a degree is just "a piece of paper" it's important to not overpay for it. Students in my experience rarely are informed on how the cost of their education can have long term effects on their personal financial welfare. If you graduate with little to no debt then your new salary will take you much much farther than with a looming 20k, 50k, or even 80k student loan on you or your family.

Wow, excellent points about the financial aspects of this issue.
For someone who wants to be an embedded systems engineer, no college is going to teach you what you need to know. (notwithstanding that someone might join this thread and claim otherwise, which would make for good discussion).
They'll take your money, and give you a degree, but it's kind of like them taking your money under false pretenses.

As I mentioned in another thread, the topic of of which I can't recall, two of the best hires I ever made held degrees, but they both held music degrees.
Their degrees allowed me to interview them (company policy).
Their brilliance and passion made me hire them.
They never made me regret that decision.

But kids, really stay in school, just don't rely too heavily on the weight of the paper.

[taichichuan]

Hi Gang,

There is at least one University program that could be a real plus for the embedded developer. The University of Wyoming has created an embedded systems program based on by original IEEE paper:

http://www.todaysengineer.org/2010/J...ed-systems.asp

I spoke with one of the principal authors of the paper and I must admit that I'm encouraged. The only comment that I had was that I wish they'd include a little more on 32-bit systems. The H11 is a fine processor, but it's getting a bit long in tooth when compared to the ARM Cortex M0 that's used in the Jaguars.

And, I'm in contact with a couple of additional universities that are interested in creating embedded systems programs such as the University of Advancing Technology in Phoenix and the University of Alabama at Huntsville. We certainly want to encourage these schools and others by letting them know that they're on the right track.

Mike

[dtengineering]

I've often advised students to "never let school get in the way of your education".

But I'd never advise a student who has the opportunity and desire to experience a university education to skip it.

Rather, I'd encourage them to embrace it wholeheartedly and take absolutely everything that the campus had to offer, from sports to clubs to student government to the wild and weird things that only happen when you take thousands of brilliant young minds and concentrate them in one place for several years.

The classroom should only be one part of your university experience.

But I digress... I quite enjoyed the article (especially the sampling of responses your received). I can't imagine, however, actuallly teaching in the test-based merit-pay environment you describe. I know it exists, but for the last 13 years I've had the freedom make professional judgements regarding my courses... and thats why we've been doing FRC at our school for seven years now. My theory on effective education... get good people... teach them how to teach well... pay them fairly... give them some resources... and get out of their way.

Jaosn

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I've often advised students to "never let school get in the way of your education".

The most important thinigs I learned while in college had little to do with the classroom but had everything to do with the people I met and the situations I experienced along the way

Originally Posted by dtengineering

My theory on effective education... get good people... teach them how to teach well... pay them fairly... give them some resources... and get out of their way.

This is true of most any endeavor

[taichichuan]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I've often advised students to "never let school get in the way of your education".

But I digress... I quite enjoyed the article (especially the sampling of responses your received). I can't imagine, however, actuallly teaching in the test-based merit-pay environment you describe. I know it exists, but for the last 13 years I've had the freedom make professional judgements regarding my courses... and thats why we've been doing FRC at our school for seven years now. My theory on effective education... get good people... teach them how to teach well... pay them fairly... give them some resources... and get out of their way.

Jaosn

That's what a lot of instructors would prefer (especially the fair pay and get out of the way part ;-). But, the merit pay thing is alive and well and living here in the U.S. in certain jurisdictions. It's a sad thing to see a good teacher have to play cut-throat politics to keep their jobs and get the pay they deserve. Unfortunately, in this scheme, nobody wins -- especially the kids.