Recommended Tools and Machinery for Your Team's Machine Shop

[Jon236]

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss

How about a regular caliper. (not a digital one) Teach the studnets how to read an "old fashioned tool".

One of my pet peeves is digital clocks. I asked a student to look at my watch (which I had taken off and put on the bench) and tell me what time it was. They could not tell me because it was an "old fashioned dial type, with hands".

For our off-seasons, we ought to rig a big clock with a dial to indicate match duration......it would make the point that the visual analog gives more data than a digital read-out!

And maybe a non-digital scale might help too!

[sanddrag]

For the small additional cost, I'd recommend the 44836-2VGA drill press, to get the bigger swing, the rack and pinion, and the 12 speeds. I would swap the chuck for a 1/2" one from LittleMachineShop though, as the 5/8" one that comes on it doesn't go down less than about 1/8". What's nice about this drill press, is it has an MT2 with tang drive spindle, so you can put in large taper-shank bits. It has been on sale for $99. I picked up a floor model for $65.

For a lathe, I'd highly recommend the 44859-1VGA "8x12" (actually 8x14) over the 7x10. It is physically about twice the size, and a much more powerful and higher quality machine. It often goes on sale for about $540.

And remember, there is always a 20% off coupon out there for Harbor Freight if you look around.

[George]

Sand Drag
I do agree the 8x12 lathe is better,
(Do Not buy the 9x20 a real piece of…………. shaving cream)
As for it and the drill press it came down to $$ and space limitations
Geo.

[DonRotolo]

Hm. More questions than answers for this thread. I must be slipping...

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

or how to use the cadillac gages on the surface plate for making precise measurements.

OK, you got me: What is a Cadillac Gauge? I Googles it but, well, you can see for yourself what I got.

Originally Posted by George

Dial calipers skip

Indeed they do; does anyone know how to un-skip one? We have a nice Starrett that someone made skip, and it just bugs me that ")" is not anywhere near vertical.

Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges

How do you teach a student CW/CCW with a digital watch?

Rotate the watch one way, then the other...

I make it a point to teach the vernier caliper and vernier micrometer; both are super valuable and it's a good skill to have. I don't bother with the slide rule anymore, though - too easy to forget, replacements are ubiquitous.

Even IF we could ever get a CNC (anything), I'd still want the kids to learn a manual machine. You just learn so much more feeling the cut with your fingers. Maybe an exception would be a laser/water/plasma X Y cutter for sheet goods; rare is the machinist that cuts a perfect straight or curve by hand with a torch. Kids can always use a saw; they are somewhat intuitive.

One of the first things we cover in Pi-Tech (Spet-Dec each year) is hand tools; You'd be surprised how many kids have never seen a Yankee Screwdriver. Cool High Tech Plus, when i ask for a 5/8" box wrench or ball peen hammer or (whatever) I want the kid getting it to have a clue as to what s/he should return with.

Back to the original post: I agree with squirrel, skip the mill and get a better lathe. It is easier to get past a milling problem than a turning one. And, in a pinch, a solid drill press and X Y vise will allow for light milling (but not as a steady diet).

Overall, a great shop setup. Thanks!

[moojoe]

I feel like you should somehow include a sander in there. Out of all the tools we use in our metals lab in college, the belt sander always has a line of people behind it. It's just such a useful tool. Simply by changing the belts you are able to quickly abrade material such as you do with a grinder, or put on a finer belt and be able to bring something down to a fairly close tolerance.
Just from personal experience, if I were to only have $1500 to spend, while I do overall like your list, I feel like a sander would go much further than a grinder.

[Jamie Kalb]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

It is easier to get past a milling problem than a turning one. And, in a pinch, a solid drill press and X Y vise will allow for light milling (but not as a steady diet).

Okay, I've been wondering about this for a while: Is there any reason not to chuck endmills in a drill press with an X-Y vise and use it as a mill?

[ChuckDickerson]

I have both the mini-mill and mini-lathe being discussed in this thread. Actually I have a couple of each from different vendors and setup differently. They are good machines for the money but they are very limited in capacity. If you have a small shop and/or a limited budget and limited capacity needs they are a good option. If anyone is considering buying either (or both) of these machines think of them more as a “kit” than a ready to run machine. The first thing you are going to want to do when you uncrate these machines is completely disassemble, clean, debur, and then rebuild and adjust the machine before you ever even plug it in and turn it on. When I say disassemble I mean COMPLETELY. You will be surprised what you will find in all the nooks a crannies. The fit and finish on these machines lacks a lot to be desired out of the box but if you think of them as a kit that has been pre-assembled to show you what goes where but that you are supposed to “finish” then you can have a good machine, albeit small and limited, for a reasonable price. Don't be afraid of this whole rebuild concept on these machines. They aren't that complicated and you will learn all the in's and out's of the machine along the way. We build robots remember. These machines should be a snap to tear down and rebuild for anyone that has made it through a 6 week FRC build season!

There are endless modifications that can be made to these machines as well to “customize them” and make them “better”. DROs are a popular mod as the dials are a bit quirky especially if you get one of the versions that aren’t true inch. There are also many folks out there that have CNCd these little guys. If you are considering these machines I suggest you start reading up on them here: www.mini-lathe.com. There is an endless amount of great information on both the mini-lathe and mini-lathe at that site.

There are lots of variations of both of these machines out there. Shop around. The cheapest source (usually Harbor Freight) isn’t always better. For example, the mini-lathe Harbor Freight sells is a 7x10. Most other vendors sell the 7x12 version, which oddly enough is actually 4” longer than the 7x10. H.F. sort of cheats in the way they measure theirs. Most people would call the H.F. version a 7x8 rather than a 7x10. That 4" is HUGE on one of these things. For that reason alone I would stay clear of the H.F. 7x10 machine. IIRC H.F. has also started selling a 7x12 version as well. On the other hand, Micro-Mark sells a new 7x16 version of the mini-lathe that also has a brushless motor for $750. If the thought of a lathe “kit” turns you off and you just want to take it out of the box and start making chips then you should probably stick with the Micro-Mark 7x16 as the fit and finish are supposed to be the best on them. You get what you pay for…

If you are considering these machines but are worried about replacement parts and accessories have no fear. Little Machine Shop has every part for any of the variations of these machines you might ever need. LMS also carries lots of great accessories and tooling targeted at these size machines and at the “non-professional” (i.e. hobby) machinist. LMS sells a larger replacement XY table for the mini-mill that really adds a lot of table area over the original. Chris and all the folks at LMS are all top notch and have always been super to deal with.

If you are interested in the 8x14 lathe also being discussed in this thread you should also checkout LatheMaster. LatheMaster sells their version of the 8x14 lathe also being sold by Harbor Freight which I have been told has better fit and finish for more money (of course). LatheMaster also sells a 9x30 version of the H.F. 9x20. One of the issues with the 8x and 9x machines is they do not have a reverse gear but that may or may not be an issue for you. I would guess there is a limited need for left hand threading on an FRC bot anyway. LatheMaster also sells some parts and accessories for these machines such as gear sets, etc. but you can also get parts for them at LMS. LatheMaster also has some decent small mills that are a step up in size from the mini-mill that may be worth a look for some teams. Finally, good or bad keep in mind that the 8x14 lathe is MUCH heavier than the 7x mini-lathes. I have seen a lot of the 7x mini-lathes in various team’s pits over the years. The 7x machines are reasonably portable. The 8x machines are not. Something to think about if you feel the need to have a lathe in your pit at competition.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by Jamie Kalb

Okay, I've been wondering about this for a while: Is there any reason not to chuck endmills in a drill press with an X-Y vise and use it as a mill?

OMG YES! VERY, VERY, VERY BAD IDEA! The spindle bearings in a drill press are NOT designed to take a side load. Try it and it will be the fast road to ruining your part and possible getting yourself hurt.

[Jamie Kalb]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

OMG YES! VERY, VERY, VERY BAD IDEA! The spindle bearings in a drill press are NOT designed to take a side load. Try it and it will be the fast road to ruining your part and possible getting yourself hurt.

No worries, I haven't tried it. The reason it doesn't work is the spindle bearings, though? I knew it was a bad idea, I just didn't know why.

[artdutra04]

I hate digital calipers the same as I hate wireless mice and keyboards:

Their batteries are always dead whenever I need them the most!

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by Jamie Kalb

The reason it doesn't work is the spindle bearings, though?

Well "work" is a relative term I guess. Sure you can do it. Yeah, it might "work" if you take very light cuts as Don says in a pinch. Problem is there isn't a good way to know how light or heavy of a cut you can get away with before things go wrong. Also, the accuracy of chucking up an end mill in a drill chuck just isn't that great so unless you are just trying to hog out a slot or something your part isn't likely to be very precise. End mill holders and collets can hold an endmil and take the side load. Drill chucks are usually just pressed on a taper adapter (like a JT33 to a MT2). It doesn't take much side load on a drill chuck before it will let go from the taper adapter and go flying away.

[Jamie Kalb]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

Well "work" is a relative term I guess. Sure you can do it. Yeah, it might "work" if you take very light cuts as Don says in a pinch. Problem is there isn't a good way to know how light or heavy of a cut you can get away with before things go wrong. Also, the accuracy of chucking up an end mill in a drill chuck just isn't that great so unless you are just trying to hog out a slot or something your part isn't likely to be very precise. End mill holders and collets can hold an endmil and take the side load. Drill chucks are usually just pressed on a taper adapter (like a JT33 to a MT2). It doesn't take much side load on a drill chuck before it will let go from the taper adapter and go flying away.

Gotcha. Thanks a lot for explaining that!

[Gary Dillard]

Does Harbor Freight carry any decent (adequate) tools similar to the list you have from CDCO and Enco? Reason I'm asking is, out team now has a permanent space to call home where we could set up a shop. I'm considering as a fundraiser next year bringing the robot to the local Harbor Freight store and setting up some "wishlist" cards so people could purchase or contribute towards specific items we need. If I could put together the entire list from Harbor Freight and not just the big stuff we might get better response.

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

OK, you got me: What is a Cadillac Gauge? I Googles it but, well, you can see for yourself what I got.

They are also known as height gages, see the digital version here:
http://brownandsharpe.com/precision-...s/height-gages
I don't know where the name cadillac gage comes from but it's what all the machinists I've ever worked with have called it so I picked it up from them. (Most of these machinest went through Pratt & Whitney's tool & die apprentice program so it probably comes from there.)


We have the old pre-dial indicator versions in our shop, it reads like a pre-dial vernier. As with most of our tools and tooling we got our equipment from either our primary sponsor upgrading or one of the other local UTC divisions upgrading their equipment. They used to essentially sell tooling by the pound or give it away. This leads to use having some really unique form tools for the mill, as well as stuff that we have no reason to keep other than its really cool like spline broach for a propeller.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Jamie Kalb

Okay, I've been wondering about this for a while: Is there any reason not to chuck endmills in a drill press with an X-Y vise and use it as a mill?

As already stated, a drill press doesn't have spindle bearings designed for side loads, thus my comment about light cuts. A serious drill press (we have an old continuously-variable multi-speed Delta) is better than, say, a shop fox or craftsman, but even then... Also, no matter how tight you make the table, it will move under side load, spoiling the work. So, for light cuts in aluminum, on an emergency or very occasional basis, OK, but as a mill, you'll eventually damage things.

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

Does Harbor Freight carry any decent (adequate) tools similar to the list you have from CDCO and Enco?

Some may share my opinion that Harbor Freight does not make ANY decent tools. That doesn't mean I don't have any of their tools, but I understand the significant compromises they make in design and construction.

That being said, HF offers almost all of those items, albeit at different quality levels.