Should FIRST expand beyond robotics?

[Mark McLeod]

In FIRST's current survey they asked the question:

44. If FIRST were to expand into science and technology programs beyond robots, would members of your team be interested in participating?

Would you?

This is something that deserves a discussion rather than a multiple choice answer.
Do you have any suggestions for FIRST?

[BrendanB]

FIRSTprobably could not answer this as these are only ideas they have, but my question would be what? What would we expand into?

[EricH]

Yes... And no.

No because they're very successful with robotics as it is. Sticking with what works is the easiest path, and one that should work well.

Yes because robotics is easily seen as "Oh, you're a nerd/math whiz/waaayy too smart for me", so you probably want something else.

As for what to expand into, I can think of some high-school level science/technology competitions already in rocketry. What about a design-your-own R/C airplane event? Given a stock plane type, modify it any way you like to accomplish an objective (speed, lift, maneuverability). It'd probably be less expensive overall (my Aero Design team, which builds fully custom planes, has a budget lower than just about any FRC team's), has a built-in mentor field, and can be as easy or as hard as the teams make it.

[Mark McLeod]

I suppose other engineering-based types of competitions could be used as a model. Maybe introduce smaller versions of some of the college-level competitions like solar powered cars/aircraft, mini-baja for rc cars, rocketry, etc.

Science competitions based on social networking experiments like the Darpa Red Balloons.

I hope it wouldn't compete with current events, such as Science Olympiad, but would organize something completely different.

[Rich Kressly]

I would MUCH rather see FIRST partner with like-minded STEM organizations to promote all similar programs.

Duplicating the efforts of other organizations, when we already collectively reach so few students, schools, and communities is a waste of resources - especially for a small office that is already way overworked and underpaid.

[delsaner]

Originally Posted by EricH

No because they're very successful with robotics as it is. Sticking with what works is the easiest path, and one that should work well.

Agreed. You should not fix whats isn't broken. The only kind of expansion I have in mind would be to either start new teams which we (FIRST Teams) have been doing throughout the years, or a start of a new field of competition, like an addition to FRC, FTC, FLL, etc. It could be a scientific discovery/research project that each team does, or something like that. Until we have thorough idea that we KNOW will work, I recommend keeping FIRST they way it is.

My thoughts.

[548swimmer]

Agreed, I find this an extremely interesting concept, and believe it is not needed. On my team, we rely heavily on science and technology to support our robot. For example, decisions such as plate thickness and flange locations aren't okayed without FEA. This is an incorporation of the technology element. We're also forced to experiment with new designs each year, incorporating the science element.

I would be interested in some sort of comptetion other than robots, maybe something like Formula or Baja where we need to build something that a human can drive. There are obvious issues with this, saftey being the primary one. Simply limiting the maximum speeds of the vehicles would eliminate much of the point to a competition like this, so they'd have to be extremely creative in how they ensure driver's saftey.

All in all, I think that FIRST should expand beyond only robots, though not for the sake of incorporating more science and technology.

[JaneYoung]

For FIRST to expand in any area, they would need to expand their staff, first. It is my opinion that they could expand their staff now - in order to handle the needs and demands of the teams in the programs they already have in place at the current time. One area that comes to mind is continuing to work to develop methods of sustainability for the teams that have formed and are forming in FRC - strengthening regions that are in need of mentors, program development, and support. When the programs are developing consistently and the staff is not overwhelmed or buried under the current system, then expansion into other areas could be looked at. If they are seriously considering expansion in the near future, perhaps the staff that they bring on board will help strengthen the current programs and system in place, understanding the true nature of the programs and the demands placed on teams. That would be key.

Jane

[Andrew Schreiber]

I honestly have to say no.

Right now FIRST needs to sit back and determine what their goals are. Do they want to grow the program in the United States/Canada or do they want to grow the program outside of the Americas? (This is mostly and FRC problem) Doing the latter will take considerable man power and time. IF FIRST does not commit to expanding outside of the Americas it would be possible that FIRST could expand into other markets but I think this would be among the gravest mistakes FIRST could make.

If they do they need to go after a completely different set of people, do not go after the obvious future engineers. They should target the more athletic crowd. Perhaps with competitions involving designing running aids, javelins that fly better, or the like. Show the students that instead of working harder they can work smarter.

[IKE]

At Purdue, we would do a program called the PTS Creativity workshop. It was lead by a professor that had a Creativity course in the ME department. He also lead Pi Tau Sigma. The point of the creativity seminar was to integrate Junior year students with a company for 1 weekend. Basically it was a 2 day event where students and company reps brainstormed and worked on proposals for a major problem the company had. I was able to participate 2 years, and it was a wonderful opportunity.

I started to add a lot of details, and then remembered I signed a NDA (I can't remember if it was with Purdue and the Companies, or just the companies) so had to remove a lot of it. If FIRST sponsored weekend programs similar to this weekend I would be all for it.

If FIRST were sponsoring other Engineering and Design projects like FLL or FTC where engineers are not allowed to work WITH the students, I would not participate. There are a ton of other great programs and projects that students can do on their own. I would only support additional programs that allow the mentors to work WITH and not FOR the students. FIRST would do well to have additional programs like this that do not require the high monetary and time commitment.

I still remember (12 years later) some of the engineers I met those two weekends. To me, they were just your average everyday Superhero engineers (just like the Green Ranger).

[548swimmer]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

If they do they need to go after a completely different set of people, do not go after the obvious future engineers. They should target the more athletic crowd. Perhaps with competitions involving designing running aids, javelins that fly better, or the like. Show the students that instead of working harder they can work smarter.

This would pull in the same group of future engineers, only the more athletically oriented ones. I am an excellent example of this. I swim for my high school team, rock climb, run, and lift weights. I am also a co-leader of the CAD team. I'm sure there are many students ouit there who are in a similar situation.

I don't totally disagree though. I think that expanding FIRST to a more real-world application would challenge students more. Perhaps each team would have to come up with a better way to accomplish some everyday task. The parts would be done soely in CAD, and then submitted. These parts could be jud ged (sorry, my friend clicked it) on ease of production as well as whether or not they accomplish the task.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by 548swimmer

This would pull in the same group of future engineers, only the more athletically oriented ones. I am an excellent example of this. I swim for my high school team, rock climb, run, and lift weights. I am also a co-leader of the CAD team. I'm sure there are many students ouit there who are in a similar situation.

Yes we occasionally get them but if we were able to take the stereotypical football player and show him that he could be a better player by using his brain wouldn't we all be better off? Hopefully someone smarter than I can come up with a challenge to draw in THAT sort of person.

[548swimmer]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Yes we occasionally get them but if we were able to take the stereotypical football player and show him that he could be a better player by using his brain wouldn't we all be better off? Hopefully someone smarter than I can come up with a challenge to draw in THAT sort of person.

I'm all for that, though creating an engineering challenge for the non-mechanically minded will prove to be extremely difficult. I agree that FIRST should investigate a challenge like this though.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

I would MUCH rather see FIRST partner with like-minded STEM organizations to promote all similar programs.

FIRST isn't a robot advocacy society. FIRST has a vision and a mission to promote STEM education and change our culture. Creating a new program within FIRST creates significant challenge.

I think the award structure at FIRST should contemplate and emphasize things teams are doing to encourage STEM activities of all types in addittion to the FIRST key values.

There is a ton of interesting things students can do in the STEM field that complements FIRST.

full disclosure: My statement may sound a little self serving in light of our other STEM related awards but I can personally attest to how much this activity has enhanced our FIRST activities.

[Merle]

I feel that the FLL themed competitions and research project provide a great STEM addition to the robotics competition. In the years I have coached an FLL team our students have:

NanoQuest: Observed many items under a microscope & had their hair imaged in a scanning electron microscope
Power Puzzle: Toured solar powered buildings & made potato batteries
Climate Connections: Visted and discussed weather related issues with the local ambulance association
Smart Move: Climbed aboard a blimp (Snoopy I) and talked with the pilot and crew

Having a themed research project at the FRC/FTC levels might be a managable expansion of the program. My recommendation would be that the final presentation be handed in as a video (or in addition to live presentation), rather than a live presentation (done in a room with only judges present) so that others could view the presentation and learn from it.

Merle Yoder
Mentor - Granby GRUNTS Team #3146
FLL Coach - Granby Red Blox