The Future of FRC Teams....

[fuzzwaz]

Originally Posted by Basel A

The difference between FIRST and many sports teams is that in most sports, the players are the major deciding factor in how good a team is, then the coach. Both of these are quite temporary. Dissimilarly, in most of what you call "dominant" teams, there's a foundation of dedicated mentors who don't move.

Though there are the fans and such that stay behind a sports team no matter what, they are not the deciding factor in how good a team will be. However, in FIRST, it is often the mentors that will determine how good a FIRST team is over the years (obviously a highly talented/highly dedicated/etc. student can have a major influence on a team, but in most cases they will move on to another team or just graduate after only 4 years).

As a note, this isn't saying those teams have dedicated mentors who build the robot, merely saying that those mentors do a great job in training students in such a way to be successful in FIRST, whether in decision-making skills or copious design "suggestions," those teams are more successful for it.

Maybe Sport teams and Robotic teams are not the same in some of those ways, but they are both groups of people coming together to achieve a certain goal. The success of each group is a combination of what they have around them. What truly sets apart a successful team (sport or not) is the mentality of the team itself. How are the students in this generation of Frog Force going to be different from the next generation and so on. A team with all the right mentors and tools to work is nothing without the right amount of motivation. This is why I believe no one team is invincible. This is where sports and robotics truly share similar components. So I think the real question turns out to be, Who are the teams who will become inspired within the next few years and who will lose their motivation to live up to the hype that their success has given them?

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by fuzzwaz

A team with all the right mentors and tools to work is nothing without the right amount of motivation. This is why I believe no one team is invincible. This is where sports and robotics truly share similar components. So I think the real question turns out to be, Who are the teams who will become inspired within the next few years and who will lose their motivation to live up to the hype that their success has given them?

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is.. the right mentors will motivate. There is obviously quite a bit of fluctuation, but I don't think it's because a team is fading, rather random chance, bad design decision, or another unfortunate event. The only way I think a really "dominant" team could really fall from grace would be if they lost a main mentor, organizer, or motivator, or one who is all three (most likely).

[fuzzwaz]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is.. the right mentors will motivate. There is obviously quite a bit of fluctuation, but I don't think it's because a team is fading, rather random chance, bad design decision, or another unfortunate event. The only way I think a really "dominant" team could really fall from grace would be if they lost a main mentor, organizer, or motivator, or one who is all three (most likely).

Yeah I see what your saying. One person can make the differnce in not only the design of a teams bot, but the motivation of the team as well. Maybe I should be asking not if a team will fall from grace, but rather which teams will rise from the ashes and make power house teams less powerful?

[JABot67]

I certainly hope that the HOT Team continues to do well, but my prediction is that it will have good years and bad years. The fact is that even very well built, solid teams make poor design choices. Take 254/968 last year (2009)... their robots were amazing, but they chose to make them long instead of wide, and that gave them a disadvantage they weren't able to overcome in Atlanta.

My first year on the HOT Team was 2007, and I definitely got the impression that we were just not the team we used to be. We had our year in 2005, and that was the best we could ever do. I heard from the upperclassmen and mentors that 2006 had been an absolutely terrible year for us... our robot didn't work and was always breaking on us. And in 2007, everybody said our robot was good but we were eliminated in the semis at Great Lakes (with 1114), in the quarters at West Michigan, and in the finals on Curie. I was kind of mad that we didn't get to be on the team when they won the Championship and Chairman's Award in the same year.

2007 was the last year we had a robot that did everything we wanted to do, on ship date. Every year since then, I was afraid we were going to have a repeat of 2006.
On ship day in 2008, we had a robot with a non-functional arm and no autonomous mode. I thought we were screwed with all the catapults/shooters out there that could elegantly toss the ball over the overpass.
On ship day in 2009, we had a turreted shooter that could not stop jamming. It shredded balls in the process.
On ship day in 2010, our roller repelled balls, we didn't know how we were going to hang, and we had a lot of programming to do that I was afraid would freak out and kill us at competition. Plus we all knew of the cycle... One year we make Einstein, the next we win it all, and the one after that we absolutely suck. We wanted to break the curse.

I guess what I'm saying is... teams are going to have good and bad years. While sports teams generally stay the same for a couple of years, FRC teams can go from being great to being crap, and back again, because they have to make new robots every year. 469 had a bad robot last year, though they are normally excellent, and this year they made an absolutely outstanding robot. 2337 broke out their rookie year with a crazy-good robot, but their 2009 robot was a disappointment. 25 and 330 this year were many times better than they were last year. I will go out on a limb and say that 1114 might have a bad year sometime. And yes, newer teams will end up being dominant... teams like 2753 and 3138 will build killer machines. Also, teams that have been around for a while will suddenly burst out with great machines, like 1918 did in 2009.

How well a team does depends a whole lot on luck, and a whole lot on the talents of the students and mentors. One of those changes very much from year to year, and one of those only moderately changes.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JABot67

469 had a bad robot last year, though they are normally excellent, and this year they made an absolutely outstanding robot.

Bad robots win IRI?

Everything else aside, I agree with your post.

[Arefin Bari]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Bad robots win IRI?

Everything else aside, I agree with your post.

Adding to what Chris had to say, I look forward to seeing what 469 produced every year. They come up with one of the best robots possible. They just don't get enough mentions.

[Josh Drake]

A lot of references have been made to professional sports. I think if this thread needs to compare FRC to a sport, it should be more like high-school sports. The school I went to has a football dynasty. Other schools around the country are known for certain sports. That's sort of how I see the successful FRC teams. They have the mentors (coaches), recruit the students (players), and have facilities and support. Some teams are going to be oriented toward building the best robot they can and will have a great plan and team to do so. I also see the point of since we build a new robot every year; there are good years and not so good ones.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is there are teams that will always be competitive and teams that struggle to get something on the field.
My $0.02

[bassoondude]

Originally Posted by DRAKE343

A lot of references have been made to professional sports. I think if this thread needs to compare FRC to a sport, it should be more like high-school sports. The school I went to has a football dynasty. Other schools around the country are known for certain sports. That's sort of how I see the successful FRC teams. They have the mentors (coaches), recruit the students (players), and have facilities and support. Some teams are going to be oriented toward building the best robot they can and will have a great plan and team to do so. I also see the point of since we build a new robot every year; there are good years and not so good ones.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is there are teams that will always be competitive and teams that struggle to get something on the field.
My $0.02

The biggest difference between High School sports and Robotics is talent. In sports, great players aren't made, they are born. In Robotics, a team member can come in knowing absolutly nothing, and end up being a team's MVP. I guess this goes back to the mentors point, but you also factor in how much time that person spends working on the robot, and how willing they are to figure out how stuff works.

P.S As a fellow South Carolinian, I am very interested what school your talking about.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

There is a real equation to success that includes various amounts of returning students, retuning mentors, dedicated teachers, a certain size team and a drive to do the best you can. For Wildstang one of the original Lead teachers, the original Lead mechanical, long time mentor Lead, co-electrical Lead and a team mom are all still with the team. We currently have six mentors that have been here all 15 years. We have four engineering mentors who were students and three who were on another team in high school. We have all but one engineering mentor that have been with the team more than seven years. We have active participation from nearly sixty students in four schools of seven in the district. We have incredible support from not only the administration but from the school board many of whom attend team events and the Midwest Regional. We have support from the local governments in the towns where our schools are located. We have regular press coverage of our successes and we perform fundraising, community awareness and volunteer work that makes people recognize us. (it helps to have tie dye shirts) We freely copy ideas that work for other teams and we regularly accept ideas from our students. And like our video from 2006, we feel we are "never done".

[M.Wong]

Originally Posted by JABot67

On ship day in 2008, we had a robot with a non-functional arm and no autonomous mode. I thought we were screwed with all the catapults/shooters out there that could elegantly toss the ball over the overpass.

So I guess you guys didn't hear about our predicament? On ship day, we had a robot with an arm...that was outside the envelope. So at Midwest (our first regional) we had a huge amount of work to do in order to legalize it. Even after our fix, it was incredibly awkward. It was top heavy and almost never worked.

As an added bonus, our first practice match was disastrous. One of our encoder free-wheels for auto program was accidentally tightened a bit too much; to the point where it was no longer contacting the ground. Well when the match started, our robot dropped into 4WD and rammed full speed into the alliance wall. We pushed the alliance wall back (top leaned about a foot back), put a gash/dent into the alliance wall, and knocked off the Wildstang's control board (breaking it, sorry!).

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Bad robots win IRI?

Everything else aside, I agree with your post.

I'm not sure if you observed it closer, but it was an incredible piece of engineering (17 motors I think?). However, with so many moving parts, it was liable to jam. But when it did work, it work well.


As another member of Frog Force, I believe the main issue we have is motivation. While those who came before us were deeply invested in a team they helped to start, it is no surprise that those who join now do not see past the current year. Considering our team started in 2001, those who joined the team in its infancy were seniors the year we won Worlds (2005).

Their motivation and vision for the team assisted them in their desires. They wrote the bylaws for our team, keeping in mind that those who would follow would have the same passion and drive that they possessed. Sure, there is a group of us who have the drive, the passion, and the vision to push the team forward, but there are many more who do not. While some of us attempt to just maintain the team, quite a few of us are pushing the team forward, to evolve.

Hopefully, we can continue our push for change and progression.

[IKE]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but Team 33 has not "won" a regional for at least 5 years. One thing I think that is interesting about FIRST is that it really "Awards" just the winners. If you start judging your success by trophies in the case, you are destined for a troubled future.

Some 503 specific advice: You guys had a great run for several years, but one thing you absolutely must understand about FIRST, is that the about 1/3 of the time, luck plays a great deal in being a Champion. I know that seems like blasphemy, and people will write about predestined teams, but notice i put a 1/3rd in there. The reasons:
In games where 2 robots can dominate the game (2008, 2009, 2010, 2006), the #1 or #2 alliance will win. thus if you are the 23rd or 24th best robot or have a strong relationship with the picker, you too will win (i.e. 1/3rd of the Winners were fortunate).
In games where 3 good robots can beat 2 great robots (think 2007), the number 8 alliance can often pull an upset (spoken form experience in the #1 seed). No one goes into a tournament striving to be the 8th best, or 15th/16th best or event the 23rd/24th best. those things just kind of happen.
From a winning perspective, the worst spot to be in is the 5th-8th most capable machine at an event. You will often end up in the 3rd-6th alliance which means you will likely be beat in the semi's. One of our goals is to play in the eliminations at every event. Only the winner's get to end the day on a victory, so we all lose at some point.
So what does it take to be sure you will be playing Saturday afternoon? You must either figure out how to seed in the top 8 or be in the top 16 at the event. YOU MUST. Top 24 is not good enough because you have some teams luck into the captain positions, and you have specialty picks (defense, zone specialists, ramp bots) during the second picks. If you are trying to play offense, you must be top 16.

MSC is tough. We had 503 around 30th on our list. What that means is I would not have been shocked if you were picked, but I would have been surprised at a first round pick.

Championship is a mixed bag. Honestly, on most of the fields, it was softer than the MSC (see OPR paper for Divsion Strength). Archimedes was very similar to MSC with only 1 stand-out (254 was in a league of their own) instead of 3 standouts like MSC. That being said, it is tougher to get picked. There is more regional bias, luck, and quite frankly poor picks at the championship. This year with 10 rounds and the points based seeding, there was less luck in reaching the top 10 (though more schedule luck for order of the top 10). There were a lot of great teams (regional winners) that didn't play Saturday afternoon. There were Multi-year world champions knocked out in the first round.

So, from a robot perspective, consider this a wake-up call to do better next year. Talk about what went right, and what went wrong. Look at what teams better than you did. Focus on the teams that have similar capabilities but end up turning out a superior product. That is what we did after last year. We built too complicated of a machine with too little resources last year. We were beat by teams with less resources, but way more elegant designs. 330 is a team that doesn't get enough credit for elegance in design. Year after year they turn out one of the best robots around with very simple fabrication techniques. Elegance is often harder than complicated machines.

All that aside, 503 is a great team. You guys won the Chairman's at MSC. This is an amazing feat that you should be very proud of. There are many teams that left MSC and the Championship with only memories. That is still a success in many people's minds (as it should be).

[Josh Drake]

Originally Posted by bassoondude

P.S As a fellow South Carolinian, I am very interested what school your talking about.

Big hint: John McKissick

[fuzzwaz]

The reason I asked this question was because it seems like (In my opinion) that a changing in a team’s success can happen at any point in time. I feel like our teams success has “hopped” all over the place for the past few years.

-In 2005 we were world champs!
-In 2006 we lost to 217 during the finals on Einstein
-In 2007 we lost during the finals on Galileo
-In 2008 we were not picked at the Championship event
-In 2009 we lost in the Semis with 1114 on Archimedes
-In 2010 we did not get picked at States, nor did we get picked at worlds

What I believed was that the quality of our robot was suffering because of the mentality of the group. After 07, we would NEVER think that it was our robot that was the problem, but it was the other things. It was never the robot; we always thought that we had a good chance to win it no matter what our robot was like. This mentality was born because after 05 and 06, our team just assumed that we were good. Is this what happened with HOT after 05? No idea… All I do know is that our entire team’s history changed because of it. If we stayed “dominant” even after 06 would we be as popular as HOT? This is what I mean by the changing in a team’s success. We both won worlds for the first time in 2005. In 2006 we were very close to winning it again. HOT came back and created a dynasty while we thought ourselves gods and fell from the top of Olympus! Who knows what will happen next? I don’t .

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by fuzzwaz

The reason I asked this question was because it seems like (In my opinion) that a changing in a team’s success can happen at any point in time. I feel like our teams success has “hopped” all over the place for the past few years.

-In 2005 we were world champs!
-In 2006 we lost to 217 during the finals on Einstein

Which is interesting, because at Great Lakes we got down to the final alliance selection and both 503 and 67 - defending world champs - were on the sideline waiting to be picked. HOT got the spot, 503 waited for Atlanta.

-In 2007 we lost during the finals on Galileo
-In 2008 we were not picked at the Championship event
-In 2009 we lost in the Semis with 1114 on Archimedes
-In 2010 we did not get picked at States, nor did we get picked at worlds

... we thought ourselves gods and fell from the top of Olympus! ...

I wouldn't be that hard on yourself. You have a good solid program that shows itself in so many ways off the field - kickoff, practice field, FLL support, etc. Sometimes a design or other decision about the robot can make you uncompetitive for a year (meaning you won't be in the finals, not that you will lose every game). That's nothing to be ashamed of - learn from the mistakes and come back better the next year.

[fuzzwaz]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Which is interesting, because at Great Lakes we got down to the final alliance selection and both 503 and 67 - defending world champs - were on the sideline waiting to be picked. HOT got the spot, 503 waited for Atlanta.
I wouldn't be that hard on yourself. You have a good solid program that shows itself in so many ways off the field - kickoff, practice field, FLL support, etc. Sometimes a design or other decision about the robot can make you uncompetitive for a year (meaning you won't be in the finals, not that you will lose every game). That's nothing to be ashamed of - learn from the mistakes and come back better the next year.

Its just that the way we were making our bots was changing mentaly. We were in this huge slump where no matter what happens, it is never the robot. It is the drivers, or the mentors, the refs, the alliance partners, bad luck, ect... We are currently working very hard to get over that, but we are very proud of the way our team connects with our community and with other teams! The point I was trying to make was that even a World Championship team can reach the point where change is needed to get to the top again.