Rule change suggestions for MARC 2010

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

I disagree. After having been on the side that got intentionally run into while trying to hang in two different matches and watching our hanging arm get bashed violent against the tower (luckily not breaking it), I'd stick with the current rule.

I'm still advocating penalizing a team for harmful actions, but I don't believe that the entire alliance should be penalized for a lapse of a judgement of a driver who got caught up in the heat of competition.

[Basel A]

I'm still advocating penalizing a team for harmful actions, but I don't believe that the entire alliance should be penalized for a lapse of a judgement of a driver who got caught up in the heat of competition.

Then what are you suggesting? Disqualification of a team? 5-point penalty?

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Then what are you suggesting? Disqualification of a team? 5-point penalty?

In the finals, have the penalized team sit out the next match, and maybe have a back up come in and play for one match. Maybe 5 points, but I think that'd be something harder to implement in the game management system.

[Bjenks548]

Buy 2 gold soccer balls, each alliance starts with one of them in their far zone in auto. Each gold ball scored is worth 2-4 points. It wouldn't really change game play but it would be interesting to see robots fight over these two balls.

[Jack Jones]

Let's break out the Poof Balls and Regolith and play "Aim High on Ice".

[musicspeaks]

Originally Posted by Bjenks548

Buy 2 gold soccer balls, each alliance starts with one of them in their far zone in auto. Each gold ball scored is worth 2-4 points. It wouldn't really change game play but it would be interesting to see robots fight over these two balls.

I really like this idea! and I agree-- it would be very fun to watch.

[548swimmer]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

I'm still advocating penalizing a team for harmful actions, but I don't believe that the entire alliance should be penalized for a lapse of a judgement of a driver who got caught up in the heat of competition.

I agree. If one of my alliance members were to damage another robot, we would have no way to stop them. We also were not responsible (during seeding rounds) for picking them. There should be a penalty during the qualifying rounds for the offending robot, though not for the other 2 alliance members. During elimination, whatever team picked the offending team, as well as the offending team should be disqualified.

[Radical Pi]

Originally Posted by 548swimmer

There should be a penalty during the qualifying rounds for the offending robot, though not for the other 2 alliance members.

According to the rules (which I would hope the FMS algorithms were written from), during qualifiers it is only the offending robot will get the red card and have its seeding score dropped <T11>.

I also feel sorry for the MARC staff who would have to manually calculate the seeding for all the teams if the seeding system is being changed

[Craig Roys]

Many rule changes are being suggested just for the sake of change and not because there is a fundamental flaw in the game. I'll repeat what I said in the other thread that piggy-backs what Jack Jones has been saying; teams built their robots to play under a certain set of rules and point values - changing them for no good reason is unfair. Many teams decided that it wasn't worth trying to hang for only 2 pts - why should they be punished now for that decision? If the point value had origianlly be higher, many of those teams would have put effort into a hanging mechanism.

Fundamentally, the game is fine the way it is and should not be changed in a major way. Are there rules that should be looked at because it caused many teams problems such as the "crossing back over the line" penalty in 2008? Maybe, and that's what this thread should be discussing...not completely changing the game; which, by the way, was pretty fun to play and watch.

Just my $0.02

[Wayne TenBrink]

I there are any changes at this point, they should be be ones that don't favor or detract from any existing robot design features.

I like the idea of having two "special" (gold?) balls that are worth extra points. It would affect game tactics and strategy, but wouldn't require any hardware alterations.

I would also support a different seeding algorithm. Is this still open for discussion or is it locked in by the field management software? I would prefer to see the winners earn their score plus loser's score, with a guaranteed minimum (10 pts?) instead of a 5 point bonus. Loser earns their own score. This would discourage 6v0 without banning it, reward high scoring close matches, reward victory in all cases, remove some sting from a high losing score, and reward alliances for their own effort.

If there are no changes, that would be fine too. I don't think there are any "fundamental flaws" in the game. (Although I agree that hanging should have been worth more from the beginning. We removed our half-baked hanging device and used the weight savings to optimize our center of gravity for bump climbing. It wasn't worth the effort and "opportunity cost" to fix it for only 2 points).

Edit: NO RED CARDS FOR LOOKING LIKE A FOOL DURING THE MENTOR MATCHES!

[sgreco]

I've seen a lot of posts asking for bonus points for scoring in autonomous. I'm not sure if I'm the only person who thinks this, but it's just as easy if not easier to score in autonomous as it is in teleop. The condition of the field is the same in autonomous every time (pretty much), but during a teleop, the position of the ball can vary, there's defense, shooting from an angle etc...

The point I'm making is that scoring in autonomous is a chance to score without defense, it's not an action that deserves to be given extra-points.

Not fundementally changing the game is a good thing. Teams built their robots a certain way for a reason. I wouldn't give extrapoints for hanging either.

[Radical Pi]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

I would also support a different seeding algorithm. Is this still open for discussion or is it locked in by the field management software?

I believe offseason events get a near-full version of the FMS this year (doesn't have wireless encryption), including the seeding system. However, it would be possible to write an alternate seeder independent of the FMS that calculates based on our own algorithm

[the programmer]

i think a good ranking system would be the winner gets 10 + their score, in a tie you get 5 + your own score, in a loss you just get your own score

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by Radical Pi

I believe offseason events get a near-full version of the FMS this year (doesn't have wireless encryption), including the seeding system. However, it would be possible to write an alternate seeder independent of the FMS that calculates based on our own algorithm

I can confirm that off-season events (useing the first field at least) will be useing FMS-Delta which included everything expect encryption (Seeding, Pit Screens, Audience screen with all the graphics etc.). Unless the even planners choose to use FMS Light (which I heard is going to be released shortly for the 2010 edtion) this should be the case.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Lighten the expansion rules slightly. If a team goes to hang earlier than 20 seconds let them instead of possibly penalizing them if they aren't completely in contact with the tower. Obviously, if a team expands in the middle of the wrong zone they aren't hanging and should still be penalized.

Take a closer look at flipping. It is kinda silly that a team is allowed to ram and flip another team at will but if they go near the tower in the last 20 seconds it is a yellow card.

Allow 2 defensive robots in the other alliances zone if and only if one of the robots is tipped over. Having a flipped robot is enough of a penalty.

Call balls that are kicked outside of bounds. In soccer intentionally outing a ball is a penalty (as far as I recall) 1pt penalty per ball. As long as the ball first contacts another robot or game element it is ok but if it just flies clear out and hits a ref/volunteer/grandmother in the face that is a safety hazard. Place the balls back into play in the defensive zone of the robot that booted them out. Yes, this discourages teams that just blast the ball but it also encourages safety.

I too would like to see more points for hanging/suspension but it is not fair to teams who designed and built their machines for the REAL game.