G13, G44 and Pinching Rollers

[Wayne TenBrink]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

In my opinion, incurring a penalty because another robot bumped you when you were gripping a ball is not the kind of situation that is being refered to in the "one robot cannot cause a penatly for another robot" rule. Significant contact between robots is expected and part of the game. If it was the nature of your gripper that such robot contact caused you to lift the ball, then that was a vulnerablility of your design and a risk you chose to take.

Pardon me for veering off the original topic, but I have a related question and comment.

The question: If a "red" robot was parked on top of the bump next to the "blue" home zone, would/should they be penalized if a red robot pushed them off the bump and into the blue zone, making them the 2nd red bot in the blue zone? Is that part of normal contact or is that forcing a penalty? (For example, if my alliance is playing against 469 at the MARC and we put a robot on the bump right next to them, would we get a red card if somebody pushed that bot off the bump?)

The comment: There has been a lot of discussion about robots that are inherently capable of violating rules which are difficult for the referees to judge (2010: 3" incursion, active mechanisms above the bumper, multiple ball possession, pinching roller; 2007/2008: envelope violations, etc.). In my opinion, unless a feature or capability is specifically forbidden by either the robot rules (inspector's call) or game rules (referee's call), teams have the right to risk penalty in exchange for enhanced capability - as long as there is a legitimate/legal use for that capability. However, I think these teams should expect that referees will rule against them in the case of a close call. (For example, a robot with a wide ball collector that is posessing one ball while it "herds" another with the same device does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.)

[jspatz1]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

In my opinion, unless a feature or capability is specifically forbidden by either the robot rules (inspector's call) or game rules (referee's call), teams have the right to risk penalty in exchange for enhanced capability - as long as there is a legitimate/legal use for that capability. However, I think these teams should expect that referees will rule against them in the case of a close call.

Absolutely right. Everyone has the right to push the envelope, that is what sometimes separates the good robots from the great. Any penalty-capable feature is a calculated risk. You can be sure there were many momentary lifts by pinch rollers this year that were not caught by referees. Judging how far you can push a rule is a design decision we face with almost every game. Just one aspect of predicting what the gameplay will really be like.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Originally Posted by jspatz1

Absolutely right. Everyone has the right to push the envelope, that is what sometimes separates the good robots from the great. Any penalty-capable feature is a calculated risk. You can be sure there were many momentary lifts by pinch rollers this year that were not caught by referees. Judging how far you can push a rule is a design decision we face with almost every game. Just one aspect of predicting what the gameplay will really be like.

I don't advocate pushing the rules in hopes of slipping something past the referees. I just wouldn't write off a good idea because it introduced he possibility of a penalty. Many pinching roller ball collectors didn't compensate for irregularities in the floor and "carried" balls for brief periods. I think they deserved to get called for carrying whenever they did it, and the referees didn't owe them the benefit of the doubt on a close call. Nevertheless, a functional ball collector that collects an occasional penalty is better than no ball collector at all. 469 may have gotten called for active mechanism above the bumper once or twice, but that doesn't mean their ball deflector switch was a liability. 1918's wide ball collector was physically capable possessing more than one ball at a time, but the ease of ball acquisition outweighed the risk of penalties and the occasional hassle of having to take evasive action.

[jspatz1]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

a functional ball collector that collects an occasional penalty is better than no ball collector at all. 469 may have gotten called for active mechanism above the bumper once or twice, but that doesn't mean their ball deflector switch was a liability. 1918's wide ball collector was physically capable possessing more than one ball at a time, but the ease of ball acquisition outweighed the risk of penalties and the occasional hassle of having to take evasive action.

Yes this is exactly what I meant by a calculated risk/reward. We also had and extra-wide ball magnet that could easily possess more than one ball, but its extreme effectiveness in easy acquisition made it more than worth the risk. I don't believe we ever recieved a multiple possession call, although I can't claim for sure that it never inadvertently happened.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

The question: If a "red" robot was parked on top of the bump next to the "blue" home zone, would/should they be penalized if a red robot pushed them off the bump and into the blue zone, making them the 2nd red bot in the blue zone? Is that part of normal contact or is that forcing a penalty? (For example, if my alliance is playing against 469 at the MARC and we put a robot on the bump right next to them, would we get a red card if somebody pushed that bot off the bump?)

My gut feel is that getting pushed in would be be considered forcing a penalty and not called. However, if the team that got pushed in did not try to immediately get out, it would then be a penalty. Getting pushed in isn't an excuse for having 2 robots playing defense in the opponents home zone.