Starting programming...

[kenavt]

Originally Posted by apalrd

I learned VB a long time ago. Thats why I didn't do any software stuff for a few years afterwards.

Then I learned C++ basics, like functions, variables, and cout/cin.

Then I joined my middle school's FLL team my 8th grade year. I quickly learned Mindstorms and actually hit the maximum potential of the language (that is not hard to do in Mindstorms). It was fun, and prepared me to think like a programmer more then I did previously. Freshman year on the Killer Bees, I learned LabVIEW, and although my code actually looked like spaghetti and had many issues, and was poorly organized, it worked. I wrote the crab steering code on our 09 robot, and it was later integrated into the rest of the code written by Jim (and probably re-written, I don't actually know what the final code looked like).

This year I made a much larger effort to organize my code, I wrote some software in the off-season to simulate arms and crab steering, and was the software lead (well, the only programmer).

Being a fairly high-level programmer, I was more interested in the algorithms, logic, and design of the code then the implementation. I am still good at writing it, but spend some time before writing it on organization and partitioning modules. I actually never used C for anything useful until 2009 OCCRA, on the VEX processor in Microchip C. And I learned a lot more then I want to know about pointers on that little VEX processor.

It depends on if you prefer higher level or lower level programming. If you already think like a programmer and focus on the logic, not the implementation, then LabVIEW is probably for you. If you prefer writing syntax and debugging lines of code, then C++ is probably best (better start with C-like code that dosen't use pointers or classes first, then work up to classes/namespaces and pointers).

To be honest, I don't really know what is high level vs. low level programming. And, what I'd like to do, is be able to do CLI languages like C++ or Java in my free time, and then be able to switch over to LabVIEW for robotics. I think I'm going to just go with learning C++ out of a book while experimenting with LabVIEW at the robotics team meetings, and then move on to different languages.

I'd recommend against learning C++ as your first language. You should start with Java as you will encounter much fewer headaches and debugging code is a lot easier.

The thing is that I already know some C++ - std::cin and cout and if-then statements, and I feel I already have a grasp of the language. Then, maybe I'll move onto C and Java.

[Chris27]

Originally Posted by kenavt

The thing is that I already know some C++ - std::cin and cout and if-then statements, and I feel I already have a grasp of the language. Then, maybe I'll move onto C and Java.

Which is easily less than 1% of what there is to know about C++. Besides most of what you know now will transfer over to Java as C,C++, and Java share similar syntax. I'm just telling you from experience that C++ can quickly become a world of hurt.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Chris27

Which is easily less than 1% of what there is to know about C++. Besides most of what you know now will transfer over to Java as C,C++, and Java share similar syntax. I'm just telling you from experience that C++ can quickly become a world of hurt.

To be honest with you, I never really understood the "::" until like a year ago

[kgzak]

Last year is when I started programing. I had never done any programing before that and our entire robot was programed by me last year. I learned Visual Basic at school and LabView at robotics that was as much knowledge I knew about programing. I would take all my robotics work home with me. That is how I learned. I think I learned as being a last resort but in the end found out I enjoyed it. So, I don't think it matter what language you learn first as long as you learn the basics of programing. I would suggest learning more about C++ if you feel you have a little knowledge about that. It may lead you into LabView.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by kgzak

Last year is when I started programing. I had never done any programing before that and our entire robot was programed by me last year. I learned Visual Basic at school and LabView at robotics that was as much knowledge I knew about programing. I would take all my robotics work home with me. That is how I learned. I think I learned as being a last resort but in the end found out I enjoyed it. So, I don't think it matter what language you learn first as long as you learn the basics of programing. I would suggest learning more about C++ if you feel you have a little knowledge about that. It may lead you into LabView.

Here is what I don't get, once you learn C++ why would you want to move to LabView? Makes 0% sense to me... Its like getting a Lambo then trading it for a Civic in my view... If you understand, why restrict yourself while you have almost full control with C++ then putting on training wheels?

[kgzak]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Here is what I don't get, once you learn C++ why would you want to move to LabView? Makes 0% sense to me... Its like getting a Lambo then trading it for a Civic in my view... If you understand, why restrict yourself while you have almost full control with C++ then putting on training wheels?

If that is what the team uses then I would learn it. Would you rather have a group of guys that can program in LabView or have one guy that can program in C++. I also don't see why C++ is any more powerful than LabView. I have written code more advanced than what one of our mentors did in C++ with LabView. I will say LabView is a little...silly? but I do the like how easy it is to debug and get live feedback. My question is why not learn both?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Here is what I don't get, once you learn C++ why would you want to move to LabView? Makes 0% sense to me... Its like getting a Lambo then trading it for a Civic in my view... If you understand, why restrict yourself while you have almost full control with C++ then putting on training wheels?

I think -- I hope -- that you're confusing LabVIEW with EasyC.

If you're comparing programming languages to vehicles, with C++ as a high-speed sports car, LabVIEW might be more like a helicopter. It's an entirely different kind of programming from a procedural language like C++ or Java, but it's just as powerful.

Actually, I'm inclined to liken C to a 1940's-era Jeep, designed to be small and nimble and capable of going off-road...but completely devoid of niceties like airbags and anti-lock brakes. :-P

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Actually, I'm inclined to liken C to a 1950's-era Jeep, designed to be small and nimble and capable of going off-road...but completely devoid of niceties like airbags and anti-lock brakes. :-P

Like the ones used by the marines in WW2, I like that analogy

[Radical Pi]

If you're just getting started with C(++), I'd reccommend learning C first. I personally think it is much simpler than C++ in terms of language constructs (not as much when you get into actual implementation) and I personally think it's better in getting you to "think like a programmer" as other people have said in this thread. Last week I was helping a friend learn Objective-C and because of the way the APIs are written (this was for iPhone) you can't really do anything without jumping directly into the object system in the language. The parts he was really having trouble with were the ones that OO languages make more complex (pointers, typecasting, objects (as opposed to structs), etc.), and would have been much easier for me to explain in plain C.

On the topic of LabVIEW, again I feel like it is a "programmer mindset" thing. With the closest thing to LV experience being NXT-G (which for those of you who haven't used it is MUCH more procedural than real LV), I was able to pick up the classmate and mess with the dashboard within 2 days, the majority of that time being the rewrite of the robot side dashboard sender (C++). Again, Having that prior experience programming really helps in switching out languages.

Oh and no matter what language you are learning, books and tutorials can only go so far. Real understanding of the language comes from looking at examples and analyzing every single line (or block) of code in it, knowing exactly how it works and what is happening in that line. That's where the "programmer's mindset" comes from. Not knowing to type in this line here, but knowing why typing this line here does what it does.

[Ian Curtis]

While finding prime numbers isn't particularly useful for driving robots, it is coding experience! As Greg mentioned, Project Euler gets you writing code to solve problems, and rewards your effort with little check marks.

Once you've solved them once, it's fun to go back and solve them in other ways too (MATLAB, Excel, Python, C, using an Arduino, etc.)!

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Here is what I don't get, once you learn C++ why would you want to move to LabView? Makes 0% sense to me... Its like getting a Lambo then trading it for a Civic in my view... If you understand, why restrict yourself while you have almost full control with C++ then putting on training wheels?

When I see posts like this it is always painfully obvious that the poster has not used LabView, and has certainly not actually tried creating the same program in LabView and C++ or Java and seen which one takes longer.

I learned C and C++ long before I started looking into LabView. I was pretty much forced into learning LabView (up until this point I thought that graphical programming was for people who couldn't handle learning real languages) when the "LabView Guy" in our lab graduated. I inherited his projects and started learning LV, after a couple of weeks I was capable of trouble shooting his software, by the end of the summer I was fairly proficient using LV. I can write code in a fraction the time it would take me in your choice of text based languages. I don't have to worry about a lot of things like parsing serial data because the tools are there for you. My favorite thing about LabView is that after the code is working with a few clicks I can create a pretty good looking GUI with graphs and charts that clearly show what is going on (try explaining to marketers and sales people that numbers in a terminal window are proof everything works.

In my current job I don't get to use LabView very often (4 bit micro controllers that cost <$.02 don't really run LabView code). I spend my day writing in C and Assembly (and all sorts of proprietary interpretations of C). I have all the control in the world over my micro controllers, however I would not equate the experience of going from LabView Back to C to going from a Civic back to a Sports Car. C (or C++) may be fast and efficient but it is not a Lamborghini, it is more like a stripped down race car, built for performance, it may perform better but it is uncomfortable to drive, labview on the other hand would be your Luxury performance car, it might not be as efficient as a sports car but it is much faster than 99% of drivers will ever need it to be, and all of the luxuries and conveniences greatly out weigh the marginal performance increases.

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

For example, I know C pretty well. I then proceeded to learn Labview, Python, Lisp, Haskell, Java, and C#. Why? Because I want to have a nice big tool chest for when I run into a problem.

I am still waiting for the day I find a problem that requires me to use Haskell, I had to learn it for a class and am yet to find a situation to apply that knowledge (ProLog falls into this category too).

[rsisk]

Learning a particular programming language is no where near as important as learning the basics of programming.

For example, learn some of the basic programming structures like:

• Sequential code
• Subroutine
• GoTo or Jump
• If-then-else
• Case
• Do While-Do Until

Learn how to define a problem through reiterative decomposition, a fancy way of saying: break down a problem into smaller components until you can solve it

Learn good programming practices like code reuse, code refactoring, encapsulation. There is a lot of good practices in the object oriented realm to help you write good reusable code.

Know your problem domain. If you are writing code for robots, you need to know different things than if you are writing code for an accounting system. I have yet to use the concept of debits and credits when writing for our robot, and never once needed to filter the noise out of a potentiometer for a AR Aging report ;>

So focus more on the fundamentals of programming, after that, picking a language is usually driven by the environment you are working in, or what you have available at the time. But if you know the fundamentals, it doesn't really matter much which language you end up in.

[kenavt]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Canada, 2337 will be running some training for programmers over the summer. I've just been busy with work and haven't worked it out with Clinton. As far as what you can do to get a jump on it. If you want to learn C++ there are a handful of books out there (check your local library). For Labview there are a series of tutorials available online. For Java, I'm not sure what resources exist but I have a handful of Java books I could loan you if you can't find anything. As far as I am concerned I will use whatever language the students want to use. At any rate, you can't go wrong with whatever language you pick. The thought process behind programming is the hard part. Run through Project Euler, finding primes has nothing to do with robots but it will teach you the syntax, it will teach you how to think through a problem too.

Good luck, have fun!

Thanks, Schreiber, I can’t wait for that. I wouldn’t mind borrowing a Java book (perhaps later on in the summer) if you don’t mind.

Learning a particular programming language is no where near as important as learning the basics of programming.

For example, learn some of the basic programming structures like:
Sequential code
Subroutine
GoTo or Jump
If-then-else
Case
Do While-Do Until

Learn how to define a problem through reiterative decomposition, a fancy way of saying: break down a problem into smaller components until you can solve it

Learn good programming practices like code reuse, code refactoring, encapsulation. There is a lot of good practices in the object oriented realm to help you write good reusable code.

Know your problem domain. If you are writing code for robots, you need to know different things than if you are writing code for an accounting system. I have yet to use the concept of debits and credits when writing for our robot, and never once needed to filter the noise out of a potentiometer for a AR Aging report ;>

So focus more on the fundamentals of programming, after that, picking a language is usually driven by the environment you are working in, or what you have available at the time. But if you know the fundamentals, it doesn't really matter much which language you end up in.

Oh and no matter what language you are learning, books and tutorials can only go so far. Real understanding of the language comes from looking at examples and analyzing every single line (or block) of code in it, knowing exactly how it works and what is happening in that line. That's where the "programmer's mindset" comes from. Not knowing to type in this line here, but knowing why typing this line here does what it does.

Thank you very much! That seems to be how to really become a programmer, especially from what I’m hearing from everyone. Thanks a lot, guys!
Just a quick question: What is the difference between high-level and low-level languages? Thanks!

[Radical Pi]

Originally Posted by kenavt

Thank you very much! That seems to be how to really become a programmer, especially from what I’m hearing from everyone. Thanks a lot, guys!
Just a quick question: What is the difference between high-level and low-level languages? Thanks!

In general, a high-level language abstracts you from the hardware and how it actually works. LabVIEW is a big one, Java too, C++ is somewhat up to this level. low-level languages are ones that expose all of the power of the machine to you, but a side effect of that is making the programming much, much harder (assembly for example)

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by rsisk

For example, learn some of the basic programming structures like:

• GoTo or Jump

Don't use that.