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Unread 22-05-2010, 14:14
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Would lamination (with carbon fiber or fiber glass) prevent fragmentation? Metal Mesh?
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Unread 22-05-2010, 14:26
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

I may end up making my half inch thick lexan boxes after all, We probably won't be able to replace the PVC but i'm going to install bulletproof box around them for saftey. The dump tank on the gun however i'm not sure yet.
http://maikenmagic.com/?ref=gallery&...irt%20Launcher
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Unread 22-05-2010, 14:43
Ian Curtis Ian Curtis is offline
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Lafleur
Lets consider PVCs pressure rating for a moment. PVC is only pressure rated for liquids (and for a very good reason):
Water is incompressable, much like a steel block ... if you push down on a steel block with 50 PSI it will not compress and if you release that force instantly the steel block will not move.
Air, on the other, hand is compressable, like a 50 pound spring. Apply 50 psi to it and the sprin compresses. release that force instantly and the spring not only goes back to it's original shape but rockets off of the surface it was on.
I still don't see how that contributes to making the material fail. I can see how it would make the failure explosive, but it seems to me that if the gauge reads 100 psig, there is a net force on the tank walls of 100 lb/in^2, no? If not, how does the compression add a force that the gauge doesn't see? Don't pressure gauges just measure the deflection of a spring?
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Unread 22-05-2010, 15:45
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

I think the real problem is the 'glassy' behaviour of PVC at room temperature. This is a characteristic of the polymer, and means it will fail in a brittle manner (fatigue and brittle fracture, neither of which would be non-catastrophic in a pressure vessel) rather than the ductile failure mode of a tank made of most metals or a different plastic.

I don't get why people choose to build a PVC air cannon after all the warnings that have come out over the years. There has to be a safer way of doing this.

EDIT: fatigue is based on the pretty much uncontrollable microcracks in your material, it could fail after 1 cycle or a million, and it is pretty much impossible to tell when it will fail.
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Last edited by ,4lex S. : 22-05-2010 at 15:48.
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Unread 22-05-2010, 16:38
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Eye protection too, please. If this thing fails in the way people have been describing it may be the last thing your operators see!
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Unread 22-05-2010, 18:30
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdcantrell56 View Post
Water is most definitely incompressible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_1102 View Post
Umm Yeah the principle of compressing water has to happen other wise when you put your finger over the end of a hose nothing would happen. Water is compressable. 1000psi water jets are used to cut steel.....so again logic isn't following here. It's compressable to a very very small degree.
You are both mistaken.

SDCantrell - Water will compress when you press upon it, just like every ordinary real material will. However, as John said, it compresses very little, and for that reason pretending it is incompressible is a useful approximation.

John - Water's compression has nothing (or at least very little) to do with whether a 1000psi waterjet can cut something. That pressurized water will fly out of a nozzle and cut things is a separate topic from how much or how little it's volume changes when it is put under pressure.

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Unread 22-05-2010, 19:26
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

To be very blunt about this, can people please stop being unintelligent and just purchase something that is certified for air pressure instead of just assuming it will work for an air cannon?

Your robot for demo's doesn't need to come under any weight constraints so feel free to use a high capacity, industrial, CERTIFIED, tank.

ie: http://www.toolsoutlet.ca/osc/images...ank%20copy.png


Here's your testing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cal71EN5Gt8

Or you could be idiots like these guys and laugh about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQo81...eature=related

Have fun with the shrapnel.
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Last edited by Akash Rastogi : 22-05-2010 at 19:30.
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Unread 22-05-2010, 19:41
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
To be very blunt about this, can people please stop being unintelligent and just purchase something that is certified for air pressure instead of just assuming it will work for an air cannon?

Your robot for demo's doesn't need to come under any weight constraints so feel free to use a high capacity, industrial, CERTIFIED, tank.

ie: http://www.toolsoutlet.ca/osc/images...ank%20copy.png


Here's your testing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cal71EN5Gt8

Or you could be idiots like these guys and laugh about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQo81...eature=related

Have fun with the shrapnel.
You commentary is unnecessary..we are having an intelligent discussion about why the dangers occur. I'm going to be getting our 1600psi firefighter air tank to use. soo thank you.
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Unread 22-05-2010, 23:19
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_1102 View Post
Umm Yeah the principle of compressing water has to happen other wise when you put your finger over the end of a hose nothing would happen. Water is compressable. 1000psi water jets are used to cut steel.....so again logic isn't following here. It's compressable to a very very small degree.
The point everyone here is trying to make is better safe than sorry. Your PVC may be rated for pressure on the inside, but what happens when you've used your gun time and time again? You know, storage, moving it from place to place. What if you drop it? Chances are you'll make defects in the exterior, and it'll weaken as time goes on.

Your cannon has a chance of failure. What happens after failure is shrapnel, bits of plastic flying in every direction at ridiculous speeds.

By definition, liquid water isn't compressible (liquids have a definite volume). Since water doesn't violently expand or change shape when its depressurized, there is no chance that it'll take the plastic with it.
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Unread 23-05-2010, 00:27
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon



A good way to win the Darwin Award?

.
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Unread 23-05-2010, 01:13
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by efoote868 View Post
By definition, liquid water isn't compressible (liquids have a definite volume). Since water doesn't violently expand or change shape when its depressurized, there is no chance that it'll take the plastic with it.
Last I checked, liquid water IS compressible, just very little. Heck, a solid steel block is compressible, you just need to apply enough pressure

Call me a bit of a n00b, but I'm not sure I see the difference between water pressure and liquid pressure, PSI is PSI, no matter what is CREATING the pressure on the walls of the PVC, the pressure is still there, and (assuming it is regulated) the same amount in both cases.
I understand that the PVC wouldn't be safe in this situation, I just don't really understand the difference between the ratings (liquid vs. air)...
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Unread 23-05-2010, 01:28
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

It's how it fails that's the issue. Water, you get an incompressible (or close enough as to be easily approximated as such) fluid that, if it's under some pressure (as it might be in a sprinkler system), and it gets an outlet, it will leave in a reasonably orderly fashion, spraying out until somebody turns the water off.

Air, on the other hand, will try to all leave at once, causing further mayhem as it breaks whatever it's in further. If you have something that's rated for air, presumably it would have failure modes to safely release the air even if something breaks.

What we're concerned about is the "mayhem" as the PVC breaks. I've seen PVC that's fallen from a height of about 3.5' break (fortunately, no pressurized air inside).
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Unread 24-05-2010, 17:02
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_1102 View Post
Umm Yeah the principle of compressing water has to happen other wise when you put your finger over the end of a hose nothing would happen. Water is compressable. 1000psi water jets are used to cut steel.....so again logic isn't following here. It's compressable to a very very small degree.
Just to clear things up- The water in your hose wants to leave the hose at a constant rate. For example, lets say 5 gallons a minute. Now, if you have a one inch diameter opening at one end of your hose, the water will come out relatively gently. If you shrink that opening (such as with your thumb), the water still wants to exit the hose at 5g/min, but because the opening is now smaller, it must exit faster, and thus with more force.


On a side note, our team operates our tshirt cannon off a 5-gal tank designed for air pressure (craftsman tank, I believe). It works fantastically well. PVC can not only fail in the piping itself, but it is also highly susceptible to end caps and joints failing.
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Unread 24-05-2010, 17:28
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_1102 View Post
You commentary is unnecessary..we are having an intelligent discussion about why the dangers occur. I'm going to be getting our 1600psi firefighter air tank to use. soo thank you.
You should listen to Akash, he does know what he's talking about.

I'm glad to know that your getting a metal airtank It's alot easier to spend some money and be safe, than to pay a hospital to fix you.

By the way, a SCUBA tank would work fine, it holds more air at 3000psi, and is way more safe than any PVC storage tank you could practically come up with. Plus they have standard size fittings!
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Last edited by gorrilla : 24-05-2010 at 17:34.
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Unread 25-05-2010, 12:51
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Re: Most Powerful FIRST Team created T-Shirt Cannon


That's what we are going to use until we get a new tank, this one is rated 2560psi
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