The Age before AndyMark

[JDNovak]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

BASIC Stamp IFI robot controller... which doesn't have negative numbers, let alone trig functions.

Actually, the Basic Stamp did/does have trig functions of sorts. In 1999 we built our first three wheeled robot with only the rear wheel steered. Our software group attacked the problem of controlling the speeds of the front wheels by calculating the circumference of each wheels path and setting it's speed relative to the distance to travel. It took weeks to solve all the overflow issues but the result was full of trig and mathematically correct.

We have been unable to recreate that algorithm in MPLab/C18 or the cRio with the same success. We resorted to using a PC algorithm to create a lookup table off-line to be able to accomplish the same thing.

AndyMark has been extremely helpful in providing parts that fit our needs at prices that are a fraction of their cost from other sources. I agree with Chris Elston that we have saved thousands of dollars over the years they have served us.

[EricH]

Does anyone else remember the videos that they used to show on putting the "kitbot" together? I remember one in 2003 or so where they had 3 "average Joes" (who all had better than a bachelor's degree) put it together during kickoff... And some teams couldn't do it in 6 weeks.

When IFI provided the kit frame and gearbox, mobility went up across the board. That's also when the CIM limit went up to 4. AM started at about the same time, and after a couple seasons of battle-testing, word-of-mouth really took off.

2005 also saw the debut of mecanum wheels, IIRC, on 357. It took a couple of years for them to catch on as well.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by JDNovak

Actually, the Basic Stamp did/does have trig functions of sorts. In 1999 we built our first three wheeled robot with only the rear wheel steered. Our software group attacked the problem of controlling the speeds of the front wheels by calculating the circumference of each wheels path and setting it's speed relative to the distance to travel. It took weeks to solve all the overflow issues but the result was full of trig and mathematically correct.

I was not intimately involved in the programming that year (or any year for that matter ) all I know is that the work-around for the same overflow issues we had was a to compute the angles in micro-radians and use approximate polynomial expansions for trig functions... and a few other sleazy little work arounds

[sanddrag]

In simple terms, we did more with less. More hours, more design, more machining, more failures, more rebuilds, and in some respects, more learning (but that debate is a dead horse that has been beaten many times over). I think the availability of COTS parts these days is a fantastic luxury that us "old-timers" really wished for back in the day, and now finally have access to. It allows us to focus on higher level work, and get the basic stuff out of the way quicker.

Back in the day (2002), the CIM motors didn't have the keyed shaft we're all so familiar with now. It was a gear shaft, that only mated with a bizarre little gear that was included in the kit, and not available separately. Back in 2001 and prior, the CIM motor didn't even exist in FIRST yet.

Andy Baker is a very well-known "pioneer" in FRC gearbox design, as I'm sure we're all familiar with.

For me, I also gained a lot of knowledge in gearbox design from another lesser-known Andy. In 2003 and for a couple years thereafter, Andy Brockway of team 716 was also instrumental in developing easy-to-build gearbox designs that he shared and offered advise on within the FIRST community.

2005 was the first year that 6-wheel-drive became popular, after the poor performance of the large pneumatic wheels included in 2004's kit of parts, and the success of team 980's 6wd design in 2004.

[EricH]

I'd actually put the 6WD on 254/60 in 2004. That year saw the first set of twin robots in FRC--the only thing different was the color. (It also saw massive debate on collaboration such that two or more teams built the same robot.) Their joint drivetrain became known as the West Coast drive for some reason. 980 might have had something to do with it by winning IRI, but how much influence they had is unclear.

And as for the '04 KOP pneumatic wheels being poor performers, I think it appropriate to say, "to each his own", and then go use said wheels to climb a 6" step autonomously. (And then, 15 seconds later, have no further need for them...)

[dk5sm5luigi]

Going far enough back, before the days of IFI and AndyMark you were required to buy everything from the Small Parts catalog or use what was in the kit. If you wanted to build a special gear box you had to make it from parts that were in the catalog. At the end of the year you had to return your controls, after a while you could buy them for a cost.

The batteries used to be two drill batteries and you also got the two drills. Several teams would use the drill transmissions for their driveline.

Things have come a long way since then.

[ebmonon36]

We started in 2003. I believe 2003 was the first year for a kit chassis. It consisted of 2 2"x4" extruded box aluminum and two aluminum tubes to connect the box aluminum. The transmission was a complex setup with a Bosch drill transmission and motor clamped into a plastic holder which was then connected by way of a hex shaft to a gearbox with one set of helical gears. We used the gearboxes for prototyping, but then went on to use just the drill transmission setup with chain reduction and eventually switched to the "Nothing but Dewalts" transmissions in 2005 after spectacular failures with the Bosch transmissions.

We also used to make our own omni wheels, starting in 2004. The first version used a carbon fiber/AL hub and a UHMW rim and kNex wheels. .2004 was the first year carbon fiber was legal. The design evolved over the years, changing the hub to aluminum and the rollers to hard plastic and then to a rubber material with brass inserts. These were very time consuming to build.

Eric

[Rich Kressly]

So...
trying to put the history in the right order I dug back in my memory, dug to some old threads, read some stuff in this thread, and talked to some of the principles:

2002 - first year for the CIM in the kit (remember when the drill motors/trannies were the drivetrain of choice?)
2002-2004 there was a gearbox in the kit - a questionable helical one not too many folks used.
2005 - first "robust" gearbox in the kit - Designed by Paul Copioli, provided/sold by IFI, AndyMark supplied a few gears for this box.
2005 - first FULL kitbot chassis - designed by JVN @ IFI ... a novice/rookie could really build a "whole robot" right out of the box for the first time.

Every year since 2005 there has been a similar gearbox and a kitbot chassis in the FRC KOP. 2007 saw Banebots take over as the kit gearbox (with mixed results). 2008 was the first year AndyMark was the sole supplier of the kit gearbox. 2009 was the first year AndyMark was the sole supplier of the kitbot chassis, IFI was the kit supplier of this item through 2008.

Really, when I think about what's made mobility in FRC so accessible to so many, raising the bar for every team, I think about Paul, JVN, Andy and also Tony Norman and Mark Koors. We all owe a lot to these folks - even the teams who don't use these gearboxes or chassis products. Through their selfless acts and superior design abilities the "weakest" of teams stands a chance to be competitive and the "best" of teams now have all kinds of choices and design options they can pursue.

[pathew100]

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly

So...
trying to put the history in the right order I dug back in my memory, dug to some old threads, read some stuff in this thread, and talked to some of the principles:

2002-2004 there was a gearbox in the kit - a questionable helical one not too many folks used...

"Questionable" is being nice. We used these in 2003 and it blew up every other match. Luckily we were able to get all the spares we wanted at events because most of the other teams weren't using them. It was a major accomplishment when our robot managed to get to the top of the ramp...

[Dick Linn]

I remember using the Bosch drill motors when they came with the cordless drill shell. Our first year, we cut the grip handles off, glued the shells to a 1" x 4" board and held it together with hose clamps. Those drill motors/trannys were hard to mount.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Dick Linn

I remember using the Bosch drill motors when they came with the cordless drill shell. Our first year, we cut the grip handles off, glued the shells to a 1" x 4" board and held it together with hose clamps. Those drill motors/trannys were hard to mount.

+1, and the couple times FIRST provided plastic mounting brackets they were total garbage. In one competition ours fell apart and the Bosch transmission got really messed up.

[Dick Linn]

Those plastic mounting brackets were tricky. I used some rubber shims and a bit of voodoo when aligning things to prevent side loads, etc. We also used two bearings on the connecting shaft. It was definitely not a quick bolt-together proposition. Never broke in competition, though.