Girls in Engineering- Comic that explains it all

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Now is it really bad for not conforming to society and saying what is "politically" correct?

edit: you know what really pisses me off? calling me an idiot for expressing my ideas and opinions, I think YOU are the ignorant one here buddy. Keep more open minded will ya? Just because I do not agree with the majority of the group does not mean I am neither ignorant or an idiot, sure arrogant I agree on. But never idiot or ignorant.

Move along folks, don't feed the troll...

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

In fact, Karthik did not call YOU an idiot, he expressed the incredibly wise and well-informed opinion that what you wrote was idiotic, an opinion with which I wholeheartedly concur.

So saying something someone does not agree with is pure idiocy? Then his opinion is pure idiocy too. Now that I say it, people are going to say its not true, so are you saying truth is relative or absolute?

[gblake]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

...
In before flamage: I am just stating my opinions, sure they might sound rude or arrogant, but I think men now days are losing the chivalry
...

No those opinions don't sound rude or agrrogant - They are purposefully rude. There is no "might" about it.

Writing or saying self-destructive things like your post below is no way to go through the rest of your life. Choose a better path. Many are available.

Blake

[Steve W]

Enough is enough. I am closing this thread for 24 hours and then will reopen. If the same discussion continues it will be closed for good.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by princessnatalie

Women add creativity to a problem, and that is needed to solve any problem.

You want to avoid this sort of prejudice, which I believe is just as irrational as that you disagree with. I have not noticed than many have any special advantage in solving technical problems, just as I haven't noticed that women are not -- on the whole -- any more creative than men.

In general, overall, with great individual variation that swamps the central tendencies, women in the US seem to use a different approach to problem solving than men, but I haven't noticed that it is any better or worse.

I suggest focusing on the skills, abilities and personalities of individuals more than clumping them into groups. It's how I try to live and it works pretty well. There is nothing wrong to using pattern recognition ("prejudice") to scan your social environment. Humans have developed this to survive. If you think about it, "prejudice" is a subset of pattern-recognition that can keep you alive ("large creatures with sharp teeth could eat me," "hollow trees with no leaves can fall on me," "those strangers with pointy sticks might mean to hurt me," "that old person with bad skin, patchy hair, and no teeth might not be the best person with whom to make a family" and so on), but there is no reason to over-apply this, especially in a work environment. Pattern-recognition generates probabilities, not certainty. If you live by your prejudices, in the sense of "pre-judging" people, you will make a lot of mistakes and limit your experience.

[Steve W]

Thread has been re opened. Please be good.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by N7UJJ

I am overwhelmed. I think I'll let Jane answer this one.

David has agreed to work on a little bit of a 'homework' assignment with me. It may take a little while so please be patient.

David, please refrain from posting in this thread (for now) and everyone who got caught up in the whole situation, please let's:
a. move on
b. use care while posting
c. refrain from getting this thread closed permanently

I, as much as anyone, enjoy and appreciate excellent discussions. We're strong enough as a community to discuss girls and women in the fields of science, technology, and engineering and the role that society plays in fueling our frustrations and/or lack of understanding.

Jane

P.S. Thank you for re-opening the thread, Steve.

[ajd]

Originally Posted by gblake

We can try to suppress comments like the high-maintenance one, or we can rob them of any power by embracing them, and by balancing them with a few reasons why men and chains are similar.

The trouble with retaliation, in my opinion, is that it can cause more damage than it solves. We consider sexism (and many other forms of discrimination) "bad" because it demeans an entire group of people. Retaliating against one man's sexist comment by attacking men in general is very similar in effect to "retaliating" against one woman's "high-maintenanceness" by attacking women in general.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by ajd

The trouble with retaliation, in my opinion, is that it can cause more damage than it solves. We consider sexism (and many other forms of discrimination) "bad" because it demeans an entire group of people. Retaliating against one man's sexist comment by attacking men in general is very similar in effect to "retaliating" against one woman's "high-maintenanceness" by attacking women in general.

I don't think anyone was attacking men in general for that comment though.

[Tom Line]

I'd like to introduce David to my wife some time.

She has a 4 year degree in Nursing, having paid her own way through college. She was on her college track team, and completed in shot-put and javelin as well. She cooks, plumbs, does electrical work and has, on several occasions, gone to the house next door to change his flat tire. She's better grounded and adjusted than I am, and is far better at raising our three boys than I am. While I am an engineer and she is not, when we took an IQ test she scored higher than I did.

I am in awe of her.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by ajd

The trouble with retaliation, ... by attacking men in general is very similar in effect to "retaliating" against one woman's "high-maintenanceness" by attacking women in general.

Originally Posted by gblake

We can try to suppress comments like the high-maintenance one, or we can rob them of any power by embracing them, and by balancing them with a few reasons why men and chains are similar.

I, for one, prefer educating the stereotype sources by converting the stereotypes into badges of honor, instead of by castigating those who express them.
...

ajd - Your reply makes me think that you missed my point.

I recommend getting past the point where posting a wry reason or two about why chain drives are like men would be retaliation. Retaliation implies that one group has allowed themselves to be hurt and now they are doing something that will hurt the original perpetrators.

You can't hurt me by comparing males to chains. I know that any comparison is simply irrelevant except in stand-up comedy and in the unavoidable human tendency to use simplifying stereotypes to create abstract mental-models of everything they encounter.

Using humor to shine a light on those stereotypes is often a useful way to bring them into our conscious thoughts and to defuse them.

I am encouraging all females to adopt a similar "you can't hurt me" attitude, to avoid getting mired in any attempts prevent such utterances, and to instead shoot right past the situation on their way to getting some real work done.

Given 15 minutes to devote either to the comment or to completing a good chain drive; I think spending the time on completing the drive train is the better short- and long-term choice.

The "high maintenance" phrase only has as much power as we give to it. I suggest giving it very little.

Blake

[JamesBrown]

This is a really interesting thread. I am currently working for Hasbro, one of the two major toy companies. Interestingly Hasbro dominates the Boy market, and Mattel controls the Girl market (almost entirely because of Barbie)

Starting with a couple of interesting facts. The boy market sells as many dolls as the girl market every year, we just call them action figures. However a huge number of robotic/animatronic toys are marketed towards girls, they are just wrapped in fur and made to look like animals.

I have a question for the women who have posted. There is no question that boys are more likely to buy engineering type toys than girls. I mean things like robot sets, Lego sets, etc. Why is this? Is there something in our culture that tells girls that building things is not feminine enough, or is it just marketing and branding? Lego's major branded kits are: Star Wars, Batman, SpongeBob SquarePants, Harry Potter, Indiana Jones, Spider-Man, Ben 10, Toy Story and Thomas the Tank Engine. Most of which are considered boy brands in the toy industry (Harry Potter and Toy Story are Unisex). This leads me to believe that the lack of attraction to the product is not the product itself but the branding. Girls are less likely to watch Star Wars or Ben 10. Do you think that if Lego branded a kit as My Little Pony or Barbie (Never going to happen since both licenses are owned by competitors), where you could build houses and such for theme play in those brands, girls would be more attracted to it? I know that in one case my cousin (5 year old girl) loves Star Wars and loves the Lego Star Wars sets. I don't think that she is tom-boyish in her toy preferences. I think she simply likes the Star Wars brand and likes Legos because they are essentially Unisex. It is worth noting that young children regardless of gender build with blocks, some how that is lost around school age. I think that the issue is simply branding and marketing of building toys for this age group.

Working on the same idea, since there is little media directed towards girls that prominently features robots do you think it is possible to disguise robots as something that culture pushes towards girls. For example, If a robot kit came with Fur that could be used to cover the creation would that be more appealing to girls? This would allow them to build there own pets, the animatronic pet market is already directed towards girls. This would allow the engineering play to be disguised as making pets, the same way that it is disguised for boy as making star wars characters (or Transformers or any other brand) then at an older age when the role play aspect is not as significant the higher level building kits (Mindstorms, Vex) could be marketed as Unisex.

This turned out longer than expected but I kind of got on a roll.

I also would like to note that to date, the two smartest, and most talented engineers I have met are both women (both chemical engineers).

[Cynette]

Originally Posted by gblake

We can try to suppress comments like the high-maintenance one, or we can rob them of any power by embracing them, and by balancing them with a few reasons why men and chains are similar.

I, for one, prefer educating the stereotype sources by converting the stereotypes into badges of honor, instead of by castigating those who express them.

"we can rob them of any power by embracing them"

I seem to hear this concept frequently by generations younger than me. I don't think it works. My daughter has taken several courses centered around various stereotypes in society and we have had this discussion several times. I still don't accept the idea that it is ok for members of the African-American community to use the "N" word on one another saying it robs that word of power by embracing it. I still don't accept the idea that it is ok for the "F" word to be used as a speech-filler saying it robs that word of power by embracing it. I still don't accept the idea that it is ok to tell ethnic jokes because humor robs those stereotypes of power by embracing them.

And as tough of a skin as we develop and as much of a "you can't hurt me" attitude as we put on, those words confirming those stereotypes still tear us down.

What I have learned from discussions with my daughter is that we all have prejudices. It's what we do about the prejudices that is a measure of our character.

I don't think we should convert sterotypes into badges of honor, because most stereotypes are not honorable, but rather take the time to ask where the impression came from and try to provide examples of where the stereotype is not accurate.

Girls in engineering (the topic of this thread) - I think it really comes down to sales and marketing. Girls can grow up to be anything they want. What is the engineering community doing to make a career in engineering the most attractive option for those young women ready to make a career decision?

James - I'll be interested to see what feedback you get. Maybe the lessons of a toy company can give us insight into marketing engineering to attract young women in the same way it attracts young men.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Cynette

Girls in engineering (the topic of this thread) - I think it really comes down to sales and marketing. Girls can grow up to be anything they want. What is the engineering community doing to make a career in engineering the most attractive option for those young women ready to make a career decision?

Why is it the engineering community's job to attract young women to the field? Shouldn't we merely be presenting the facts to everyone and letting them make an informed decision?

[mikelowry]

Gender stereotyping is the same as racial stereotyping, in that it will never disappear until we make it a non-factor.

Generally, women tend to be different than men. No one can dispute that. But individually, there is as much difference between members of the same sex as there is between members of opposite sexes. So much so, that the generality doesn't matter.

We dont need more women engineers. Saying that we do is just placing more emphasis on the generality that doesnt matter. We are making gender a factor when it shouldn't be. What we need is more engineers, wether they be women or men, or if they are black, white, asian, hispanic, or whatever, it doesn't matter.

Granted, there are cultural norms that dissuade women from becoming engineers, and anything that is stopping individual people, women OR men, from becoming what they want, whatever they want, needs to be stopped.