KoP suggestions

[BEEKMAN]

I like this idea-keep the KoP in a rotation so vetrans don't have to buy a rookie kit every X years, but also get new essential parts every now and then

[ajd]

I like this idea but I don't really see what it gains over teams just buying the parts themselves, since presumably the cost of the KOP would increase for veteran teams if the new parts were added. Having veteran teams buy the new parts as they needed them would seem to be more efficient since teams would only buy what they need.

[DonRotolo]

One of the suggestions given to Kate at CMP was to re-open the "FIRST Store". I am told that FIRST used to give teams a credit of some value and teams could buy whatever they wanted with that credit. This was way before my time, but I think the credit was $200 and it was with Small Parts Inc.

What we suggested was to hold back certain items not every team wants or needs - compressor, brass bag, etc - and instead allow teams to order (within limits) what they want or need.

Of course, logistics of fulfilling orders are significant. But, we may one day get a single crate and permission to choose $x worth of 'stuff' from FIRST.

If you like this idea, mention it to someone at FIRST.

[ajd]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

One of the suggestions given to Kate at CMP was to re-open the "FIRST Store". I am told that FIRST used to give teams a credit of some value and teams could buy whatever they wanted with that credit. This was way before my time, but I think the credit was $200 and it was with Small Parts Inc.

What we suggested was to hold back certain items not every team wants or needs - compressor, brass bag, etc - and instead allow teams to order (within limits) what they want or need.

Of course, logistics of fulfilling orders are significant. But, we may one day get a single crate and permission to choose $x worth of 'stuff' from FIRST.

If you like this idea, mention it to someone at FIRST.

I probably sound like a broken record here but why not just slash the registration fee by $200, up the amount teams are allowed to spend on extra parts by $200, and let teams do whatever they want with the money?

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by ajd

I probably sound like a broken record here but why not just slash the registration fee by $200, up the amount teams are allowed to spend on extra parts by $200, and let teams do whatever they want with the money?

Because large savings can be had by teams Participating in FIRST when they get the parts from FIRST.

That is true because as a nationally well known entity, FIRST can have a portion of the items donated to them through sponsors (some of the KOP items come that way). For those that FIRST actually purchases, I'm certain their in-bulk purchase is at a substantial discount. Finally, again because FIRST ships in bulk to the kick-off location, their shipping costs are far lower to ship an item that they would be for just about any team.

In the end, most of the parts you get in the KOP are extremely likely to end up costing far less than going somewhere on the web to purchase them.

Finally, if you are a team that isn't local to a large number of industrial businesses, you may be out of luck in buying some of these items at all.

The key to all this, of course, is to minimize the amount of un-needed components that teams get shipped each year. That's where it's very good to get to know teams around you. We've traded components with local teams every year for the last 3, and ended up with very little waste.

I think it would be an excellent idea for FIRST to set up a small store at each kick-off location where veteran teams can buy components the day of kickoff that would normally be in rookie kits that they may need. This would leverage FIRST's cost-savings and shipping, while not creating a ton of additional overhead. Things like jaguars, compressors, pneumatic tubing, microswitches, CIM's etc would be very very handy.

[BEEKMAN]

Originally Posted by ajd

I probably sound like a broken record here but why not just slash the registration fee by $200, up the amount teams are allowed to spend on extra parts by $200, and let teams do whatever they want with the money?

Well one reason is for fundraising. Someone is more likley to dont when you say "We need $5,000 to register and an extra $1,000 for other parts than if you say $3,000 to register and an extra $3,000. To the average donor, the money raised for registration is more important than "extra" parts.

[yarden.saa]

I liked the store idea but it will be financial crysis to FIRST. because they would have to get more components tp the extra orders that not necessarily will be sold. This time they will not need to have extra part for (500 teams) it will be for (1900 teams)

[EricH]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

I liked the store idea but it will be financial crysis to FIRST. because they would have to get more components tp the extra orders that not necessarily will be sold. This time they will not need to have extra part for (500 teams) it will be for (1900 teams)

Not necessarily.

Figure that there are about 300 rookies per year. That means 300 rookie KOPs with the full kit. Let's say that they order 500 compressors one year, 300 for the rookie KOPs, and 200 for the store. Get a few extra rookies? No problem, the store gets a few less. Got a few too few rookies? No problem, the store gets a few more.

Now, here's the fun part: Those 200 compressors will not all be sold in one year. Maybe only 50 sell. That leaves 150 compressors to be sold in following years--they don't have to buy as many compressors the next year if they don't want to. Maybe the store eventually winds up with 2500 compressors, which just so happens to equal the number of teams that year. Guess how many teams get a pleasant surprise when they open up their kits? Yep, 2500.

The really fun part: The more you buy, the lower the cost per unit, as a general rule. Buy a large roll of resistors, then buy a small packet of the same type of resistors. Price out the cost per resistor, and the roll will win out.

Plus, inflation happens, so if FIRST keeps the prices in the FRC store down to right around the cost when they got the last shipment of X item in, it ends up being a little bit cheaper for the teams.

Financial crisis? I doubt it. I would even bet that they could come out slightly ahead, if they were careful, which benefits all of us in the long run.

[yarden.saa]

After a long thinking time...
FIRST store is a need of the teams to buy just what they need.
the idea of having rookie kit and veteran kit will make the dream come true just with the FIRST store.
but FIRST should take the lead now and build this kind of store.
how much money every team can to waste in that store?
200$ is not even the price of the compressor or the cRio.
some people will say me you can buy the cRio here and the compressor there but actually I don't want it because at the build season it's hard to find that store and shipment... my team don't have credit card so we are not able to buy there.
I think evey team should get 750$ at the first year and they can save this money from year to year, but in the second year 500 and at the third year 250$. after that it can be 200$ per year
oh and, you must know that the rookie teams are having a problem, most of the components are destroyed becase the teams don't have experiance for example my team camera, compressor, cRio module,....

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

you must know that the rookie teams are having a problem, most of the components are destroyed becase the teams don't have experiance for example my team camera, compressor, cRio module,....

This sounds like a different problem than the KoP. It sounds like a problem with training and documentation more than anything. While I agree that rookies don't have experience I have rarely heard of them destroying components. This concerns me greatly. What do you mean by destroyed? What caused the failures? Obviously, this is a problem but I don't think allowing teams to buy replacements is the best solution as it is merely a bandage.

As for KoP changes, how about a change up, get rid of the KoP. I can't tell you how much stuff 397 has sitting around that we never used in the KoP. Perhaps take the value of the KoP (Say $3000) and give it to us in AndyMark shopping credit. (Why AndyMark? Because I like them and they have a wide variety of parts that are easily adaptable for most teams. Also, cuz they are pretty cool people) Rookies would still get shipped a control system (CRIO, Sticks, Driver Station etc) but the vets would get a game piece and nothing more on Kickoff. Everything else would be ordered ala carte from the "Store".

Benefits:
Less waste
Less cost to teams
More variability in the KOP (Need Gen1 SS intead of a C-base? No problem)

Downsides
Organizational Pain
Delay in getting parts you need

[kenavt]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

This sounds like a different problem than the KoP. It sounds like a problem with training and documentation more than anything. While I agree that rookies don't have experience I have rarely heard of them destroying components. This concerns me greatly. What do you mean by destroyed? What caused the failures? Obviously, this is a problem but I don't think allowing teams to buy replacements is the best solution as it is merely a bandage.

As for KoP changes, how about a change up, get rid of the KoP. I can't tell you how much stuff 397 has sitting around that we never used in the KoP. Perhaps take the value of the KoP (Say $3000) and give it to us in AndyMark shopping credit. (Why AndyMark? Because I like them and they have a wide variety of parts that are easily adaptable for most teams. Also, cuz they are pretty cool people) Rookies would still get shipped a control system (CRIO, Sticks, Driver Station etc) but the vets would get a game piece and nothing more on Kickoff. Everything else would be ordered ala carte from the "Store".

Benefits:
Less waste
Less cost to teams
More variability in the KOP (Need Gen1 SS intead of a C-base? No problem)

Downsides
Organizational Pain
Delay in getting parts you need

While this is a great idea, there is a thing wrong with it that I find. Many knowledgeable, experienced teams would love this system - but there a quite a few teams that aren't as experienced or as knowledgeable, who (no offense intended) build the KOP chassis and little else, because that's all that they can do. This system would leave them with too many choices as to what to do, confusion, anger, and perhaps the folding of the team.

There are, of course, a multitude of ways of getting around this, like having teams opt in for a KOP chassis in your KOP in return for $500 or so of in-store credit. If they opt out, then they receive the full credit available.

Just my two cents.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by kenavt

While this is a great idea, there is a thing wrong with it that I find. Many knowledgeable, experienced teams would love this system - but there a quite a few teams that aren't as experienced or as knowledgeable, who (no offense intended) build the KOP chassis and little else, because that's all that they can do. This system would leave them with too many choices as to what to do, confusion, anger, and perhaps the folding of the team.

There are, of course, a multitude of ways of getting around this, like having teams opt in for a KOP chassis in your KOP in return for $500 or so of in-store credit. If they opt out, then they receive the full credit available.

Just my two cents.

Perhaps have a Suggested List of components for teams like that.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by BEEKMAN

Well one reason is for fundraising. Someone is more likley to dont when you say "We need $5,000 to register and an extra $1,000 for other parts than if you say $3,000 to register and an extra $3,000. To the average donor, the money raised for registration is more important than "extra" parts.

Make the reg fee $6000, and then you get $3000 "FIRST credit" at their store. A recommended package for rookies and teams not well off since they might not know what to get, and then teams like mine could get extra Victors instead of compressors, more CIMs instead of pneumatics, etc.