Pre-event scouting--IRI

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by pwnageNick

Well, I suppose just like 469 gets, we would get 1 penalty for extending beyond the height parameters for the normal robot size configuration, but the penalty that we get and the penalty they get would be cancelled out. Other then that, we are not breaking any rules by doing this. We would simply be able to extend our arm that we hang with because it can extend at an angle, which would therefore allow us to block balls above them and deflect the balls towards our alliances offensive zone.

I suppose you know how 469 works then? I suppose you also know the rules too?

Extending beyond the size limits is NOT a 1 point penalty it is a yellow card. 469 gets away with it because you are allowed to extend when in contact with your own tower. Additionally, 469 gets the ball nearly immediately off the return. The only way for you to touch the ball before them would be to grab near the ball return chute. A red card... So, you are still the "only one who can beat 469" eh? Sounds like a good way of getting DQ'd to me.

I said effective. 2791 had a record of 15-12-5. They averaged 4.4 goals per match per alliance.They also did not ever make it to the finals. Finally, it does not look like they can hang. 2949 pwnage had a record of 18-8-5, we averaged 6.7 goals per match per alliance, made it all the way to the finals while facing harder opponents then that of 2791, and also can hang.

Or, how to use a dictionary... Effective does not mean best. You may have sucked more but that does not mean you were the ONLY effective person with a vacuum.

[pwnageNick]

I suppose you know how 469 works then? I suppose you also know the rules too?

Extending beyond the size limits is NOT a 1 point penalty it is a yellow card. 469 gets away with it because you are allowed to extend when in contact with your own tower. Additionally, 469 gets the ball nearly immediately off the return. The only way for you to touch the ball before them would be to grab near the ball return chute. A red card... So, you are still the "only one who can beat 469" eh? Sounds like a good way of getting DQ'd to me.

I'm sorry I misspoke. Yellow Card NOT penalty. But a yellow card does not get you DQ'd, not does it lose you a point. And as far as being able to block them, there far enough under the ball return that our arm can be right over their catcher and deflect them away without touching the ball return, therefore NOT resulting in a DQ. And I never said taht we were the only ones that could beat 469. I said we were the only ones that could block them (meaning their ball return actions).

Don't question whether I know the rules or not, you just have to think about what exactly each rule will then mean to the action your robot makes.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by pwnageNick

I said effective.

Well, if you want to call out my team's design as ineffective, I'll go ahead and address those points.

1. The mechanism is effective (I assumed "effective vacuum" meant "the vacuum controlled balls well"). Here's a picture of the robot holding the ball.

2. At WPI we were not at top form by any stretch, so I generally consider Connecticut performance to be indicative of my team's robot's true strength. At CT, our team's alliances averaged 6.3 goals per match, not counting a few missed DOGMA goals in the semis. We played opponents roughly as tough as you guys (177, 1124, 694, 175, 383, 1501 vs 16, 1732, 1625, 111, 71, 2949).

3. There are many, many, many effective vacuum robots in FRC. 78 was the #2 seed on Galileo and was just inches away from winning GSR. 20 (vac not shown) won WPI with one that they ultimately replaced, and they helped 2791 with their vacuum design. 25 had by far the best vacuum of 2010, as it could grab balls from more than 6 inches away due to some magic I hope to understand someday. 571 wasn't particularly effective on field due to a lot of bad luck, but they had a quality vacuum and had the gracious professionalism to give a unit to 2791 as an upgrade for CT when we had an unfortunate malfunction. There are many, many vacuums in FIRST that are both effective in function, and mounted on robots that are effective in competition. Did you know that 25 lost only one match until the Championship?

Also, just a fair warning. Your anti-469 strategy will get you a Yellow Card your first match and disqualify you every other match (Pro Tip: Two Yellow Cards = 1 Red Card). You guys have an effective robot otherwise, so I would focus on doing what you do well rather than breaking the rules and calling out other teams.

[pwnageNick]

Or, how to use a dictionary... Effective does not mean best. You may have sucked more but that does not mean you were the ONLY effective person with a vacuum.

First off, I agreed with Sunny that while we were not the only team with an effective vacuum before, we discussed that teams still switched the the backroller/pinchroller idea because it seemed to be working better and was more popular. And if your vacuum provides the best results (aka winning matches, scoring well, playoff runs) and that that was the teams goal- to get the best results, then effective would be the right word.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by pwnageNick

I said effective. 2791 had a record of 15-12-5. They averaged 4.4 goals per match per alliance.They also did not ever make it to the finals. Finally, it does not look like they can hang. 2949 pwnage had a record of 18-8-5, we averaged 6.7 goals per match per alliance, made it all the way to the finals while facing harder opponents then that of 2791, and also can hang.

Team 1519 was 34-11-3. They averaged 7.7 points per match per alliance. They won 1 regional and were finalists at the other. They were the 5th seed in Archimedes.

Team 78 was 20-8-6. They average 7.8 points per match per alliance. They were finalists in 1 regional and 2nd seed in Galileo. They can hang.

Team 25 was 41-5-2. They averaged 10.6 points per match per alliance. They won 2 regionals and were championship division semifinalists. They can hang. They beat your highest score of 12 in 15 different matches.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by pwnageNick

I'm sorry I misspoke. Yellow Card NOT penalty. But a yellow card does not get you DQ'd, not does it lose you a point. And as far as being able to block them, there far enough under the ball return that our arm can be right over their catcher and deflect them away without touching the ball return, therefore NOT resulting in a DQ. And I never said taht we were the only ones that could beat 469. I said we were the only ones that could block them (meaning their ball return actions).

Don't question whether I know the rules or not, you just have to think about what exactly each rule will then mean to the action your robot makes.

You are right of course, a Yellow Card does not mean you are DQ'd immediately. It means if you do it again you are DQ'd. So, let us put you in an Elim match against 469: Match 1 - Yellow Card. Let us assume you win. Match 2 - Red Card for trying it AGAIN. L (In the elims your entire alliance is DQ'd remember?) Match 3 - Now you have to play them without the ability to "stop" them. Seems to me your "strategy" in addition to being half baked is not very effective. Amazing what happens when you think more than one match at a time isn't it?

As long as you demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the rules I will continue to question whether you know them and will treat you accordingly.

Edit, while we are talking about it. 2337 had a vacuum. They also had a roller. They were 40-18-6 and had a high score of 19. They also hang... and redirect... yup, sorry, not effective... Guess Ann Arbor was a fluke.

[pwnageNick]

Well, if you want to call out my team's design as ineffective, I'll go ahead and address those points.

1. The mechanism is effective (I assumed "effective vacuum" meant "the vacuum controlled balls well"). Here's a picture of the robot holding the ball.

2. At WPI we were not at top form by any stretch, so I generally consider Connecticut performance to be indicative of my team's robot's true strength. At CT, our team's alliances averaged 6.3 goals per match, not counting a few missed DOGMA goals in the semis. We played opponents roughly as tough as you guys (177, 1124, 694, 175, 383, 1501 vs 16, 1732, 1625, 111, 71, 2949).

3. There are many, many, many effective vacuum robots in FRC. 78 was the #2 seed on Galileo and was just inches away from winning GSR. 20 (vac not shown) won WPI with one that they ultimately replaced, and they helped 2791 with their vacuum design. 25 had by far the best vacuum of 2010, as it could grab balls from more than 6 inches away due to some magic I hope to understand someday. 571 wasn't particularly effective on field due to a lot of bad luck, but they had a quality vacuum and had the gracious professionalism to give a unit to 2791 as an upgrade for CT when we had an unfortunate malfunction. There are many, many vacuums in FIRST that are both effective in function, and mounted on robots that are effective in competition. Did you know that 25 lost only one match until the Championship?

Also, just a fair warning. Your anti-469 strategy will get you a Yellow Card your first match and disqualify you every other match (Pro Tip: Two Yellow Cards = 1 Red Card). You guys have an effective robot otherwise, so I would focus on doing what you do well rather than breaking the rules and calling out other teams.

First off, I was not looking to call out your team Chris. From what I've seen your team looks pretty awesome and I hope that some day our teams will meet (although we are somewhat far away from eachother). Some one presented me with an argument with your team as proof so I compared our teams. It was nothing against your team at all.

And a question, only because I did not attend Atlanta, though I don't know if you did, but how many of the teams that you mentioned did not end up switching to a backroller/pinchroller?

And finally as far as the 469 topic goes, I wan't saying it would be used every match, but if really needed, it is indeed possible with our robot. I was just throwing it out there purely because there are not many other teams who even have a chance of blocking them.

PS- Thank you for calling our robot an "effective robot". That's very appreciated. I would say that your's is too.

[pwnageNick]

Team 1519 was 34-11-3. They averaged 7.7 points per match per alliance. They won 1 regional and were finalists at the other. They were the 5th seed in Archimedes.

Team 78 was 20-8-6. They average 7.8 points per match per alliance. They were finalists in 1 regional and 2nd seed in Galileo. They can hang.

Team 25 was 41-5-2. They averaged 10.6 points per match per alliance. They won 2 regionals and were championship division semifinalists. They can hang. They beat your highest score of 12 in 15 different matches.

Joe, thanks for bringing this to my attention. Besides 25, did 1519 and 78 keep those vacuums throughout the season?

[pwnageNick]

You are right of course, a Yellow Card does not mean you are DQ'd immediately. It means if you do it again you are DQ'd. So, let us put you in an Elim match against 469: Match 1 - Yellow Card. Let us assume you win. Match 2 - Red Card for trying it AGAIN. L (In the elims your entire alliance is DQ'd remember?) Match 3 - Now you have to play them without the ability to "stop" them. Seems to me your "strategy" in addition to being half baked is not very effective. Amazing what happens when you think more than one match at a time isn't it?

Okay Andrew, I only said from the beginning that we had the possibility of blocking them in that manner. I never said that it would be a permanent fix to 469's awesomeness. It was a helpful piece of knowledge to throw into the scouting report. Seriously, how many other teams do you know of that even have the possibility of blocking 469?

As long as you demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the rules I will continue to question whether you know them and will treat you accordingly.

What a great FIRST attitude.

Edit, while we are talking about it. 2337 had a vacuum. They also had a roller. They were 40-18-6 and had a high score of 19. They also hang... and redirect... yup, sorry, not effective... Guess Ann Arbor was a fluke.

Quote: "They also had a roller." That would make quite a big difference wouldn't it.

[pwnageNick]

By the way:
Team 20: changed to a roller
team 571: has 2 wheels in front to make the ball roll backwards-a varied version of the backroller
team 2337: like I said before, they have a roller with it as well. That being said, I do applaud 2337 on their suspension hanging. That is pretty awesome.

[pwnageNick]

Also, since your missing some info, I can provide information on:
16 Bomb Squad
71 Team Hammond
111 Wildstang
1732 Hilltoppers
1114 Simbotics
2056 OP Robotics

Some random facts about the IRI list:
39% or 32 out of the 82 teams won at least one regional.
70% or 57 out of the 82 teams went to Atlanta.
65% or 37 out of the 57 teams participated in the divisional elimination rounds.
63% or 15 out of the 24 division finalist teams are going to IRI.
66% or 8 out of the 12 teams that were in Einstein are going to IRI.
Two of the second place teams in Einstein, 1114 and 469, will be at IRI.
Two of the teams from the champion alliance, 67 and 294, will be at IRI.
13% or 11 out of the 82 teams have 40 or more wins on the season.
27% or 22 out of the 82 teams have 35 or more wins on the season.
33% or 27 out of the 82 teams have 30 or more wins on the season.
46% or 38 out of the 82 teams have 25 or more wins on the season.
57% or 47 out of the 82 teams have 20 or more wins on the season.
21% or 17 out of the 82 teams have an average record under .500
Finally, the team that will be traveling the farthest to IRI this year is from... you guessed it Hawaii; Team 359 Hawaiian Kids.

There are some random fun facts about the list.

[pwnageNick]

from an observers point of view. I'm only giving the info about their robots because you can find their matches and stuff on TBA, and doing all of their events and such would take forever.

16- BOMB SQUAD

Drive Train:
-3 Wheel swerve
-2 in front, both swerve modules
-1 wheel centered in back, also swerve module
-pretty fast, good maneuverability
-might be able to be pushed around by the bigger bots out there.

Ball Control:
-Pinchroller
-It works well- will only be bested by very few other pinchrollers out there

Kicking Mechanism:
-Good kicker.
-From what I remember it was not adjustable power
-Good distance and accuracy

Hanging:
-That had an arm that had 80/20 pieces slide out
-Hooked on top and pulled up
-I'd estimate about 10 seconds

Autonomous:
-Again, from what I remember, they had different autonomous programs for each section, correct me if I'm wrong though
-They did always seem to score in autonomous though.

If want to know anything else about 16 Bomb Squad, ask and I'll see if I know.

[pwnageNick]

Team 111- Wildstang

Drive Train:
-4 wheel swerve
-very maneuverable
-pretty good speed
-won't be pushing too many people around though

Ball Control:
-Copied team 2949 for Midwest regional and had a vacuum.
-Wasn't built strong enough and wasn't too effective.
-Switched to a backroller (or is it a pinchroller?) for Atlanta
-Heard its decent but that they weren't able to work out the kinks well enough
-That may not be the case anymore

Kicking Mechanism:
-I'm pretty sure they do not have an adjustable power kicker.
-Their kicker is pretty good
-Won't be the best on the field, but also won't dissapoint

Hanging:
Wildstang does not hang.

Autonomous:
I'm pretty sure they have multiple programs for each section.
They usually either score or at least get the balls to the offensive zone.

ANy questions on 111 Wildstang, I'll see if I can answer them.

[pwnageNick]

Team 71- Team Hammond

Drive Train:
-sorry, I can't quite remember what their drive train was like, and there aren't any pics. I do remember that whatever they had, it was pretty good. It won't disappoint is what I'm saying I suppose.

Ball Control:
-I seem to remember a backroller
-I think it was decent/pretty good

Kicking Mechanism:
-kicked decently far
-I don't think it was variable power

Hanging:
Tall Pole on robot
Extended at end to hook on and pull up
Kinda looks like a candy cane.
Took em about 10-15 seconds depending on how long their lining up took.

Autonomous:
Sorry again, don't really remember

Team 71 is probably the one I remember the least, so if you have more questions, I probably can't help too much more then that.

[pwnageNick]

Team 1732- Hilltoppers

Drive Train:
It was either 4 or 6 wheel tank
pretty fast
but not weak
still maneuverable

Ball Control:
-I kind of pinchroller, except with a bar on bottom, I'm pretty sure they had a wall at the back.
-They grabbed balls well

Kicking Mechanism:
-I'm pretty sure they have an adjustable power kicker
-Good distance
-Good accuracy too
-Just a great kicker

Hanging:
Hilltoppers do not hang.

Autonomous:
Had different programs for each section.
Ususally scored something in autonomous.

Any more questions, I should be able to answer