Go to Post School cannot teach everything you need to know so they teach you how to learn. - kstl99 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Control System > FRC Control System
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-08-2010, 00:28
tutkows1's Avatar
tutkows1 tutkows1 is offline
Registered User
FRC #2077
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 44
tutkows1 is an unknown quantity at this point
Legal Cameras

I believe the axis 206 is the only legal camera that you can use for the 2010 season. Am i correct or can you use any web camera with your own software, i'm having a hard time find the rule.

I'm assuming this rule will only be slightly modified for next, and i'm coming up with ideas.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-08-2010, 00:51
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,823
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal Cameras

#1: Don't assume anything about next year's rules until next January. (I hear that you won't be allowed to use sensors of any sort next year.)

#2: Using Adobe's find feature on Section 8, I find the following in the 2010 rules:
<R45-C> If a 5V camera is used (such as the KOP camera), the camera power feed must be connected to the 5 Vdc supply terminals on the Power Distribution Board.

Note that it does not say "the KOP camera must be used". Also see <R32>.

Note that a camera would fall under "custom circuit" rules for those purposes.

And now, for the bonus part: the FRC Q&A says: legal, and legal to have a different camera.

Noting that the Axis 206 is discontinued, pick a camera and have fun.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk


Last edited by EricH : 15-08-2010 at 01:18.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-08-2010, 01:23
kamocat's Avatar
kamocat kamocat is offline
Test Engineer
AKA: Marshal Horn
FRC #3213 (Thunder Tech)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Tacoma
Posts: 894
kamocat is just really nicekamocat is just really nicekamocat is just really nicekamocat is just really nicekamocat is just really nice
Send a message via AIM to kamocat Send a message via MSN to kamocat
Re: Legal Cameras

Also note that this only applies to 5v cameras. I have here a 12v IP camera (Zonet ZVC7611). The image capturing software does indeed work with it, however, make sure to create an account it can access pictures through. (FRC, FRC is the first one it tries)
__________________
-- Marshal Horn
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-08-2010, 02:43
EHaskins EHaskins is offline
Needs to change his user title.
AKA: Eric Haskins
no team (CARD #6 (SCOE))
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI USA
Posts: 998
EHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond reputeEHaskins has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to EHaskins
Re: Legal Cameras

I believe several teams are using Axis M1011 cameras with the default code.
__________________
Eric Haskins KC9JVH
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-08-2010, 07:56
Greg McKaskle Greg McKaskle is offline
Registered User
FRC #2468 (Team NI & Appreciate)
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 4,756
Greg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal Cameras

When looking at cameras to use on the robot, one factor that is kinda hard to measure is the latency. If your camera takes a quarter second to give you the pixels, your robot will live a quarter second in the past. One of the benefits of the Axis cameras was that they happened to be pretty low latency for the price. The camera market is changing all the time, and I'd love to hear selections others have made. Please try to make a latency measurement if possible.

Greg McKaskle
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-08-2010, 13:47
tutkows1's Avatar
tutkows1 tutkows1 is offline
Registered User
FRC #2077
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 44
tutkows1 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Legal Cameras

Thanks!
Our camera had an unforcenet meeting with our kicker last year and i have been in a quest to find a replacement, but i will wait until next years manual comes out before i buy on.

On another note, i hope they keep the custom circuits on the second Ethernet port somewhat open because i what to have two cameras and a network switch for tracking software that can give a somewhat accurate range.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-08-2010, 13:59
tutkows1's Avatar
tutkows1 tutkows1 is offline
Registered User
FRC #2077
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 44
tutkows1 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Legal Cameras

What latency do you experience with the Zonet ZVC7611 camera?
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-08-2010, 23:59
kamocat's Avatar
kamocat kamocat is offline
Test Engineer
AKA: Marshal Horn
FRC #3213 (Thunder Tech)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Tacoma
Posts: 894
kamocat is just really nicekamocat is just really nicekamocat is just really nicekamocat is just really nicekamocat is just really nice
Send a message via AIM to kamocat Send a message via MSN to kamocat
Re: Legal Cameras

Quote:
Originally Posted by tutkows1 View Post
What latency do you experience with the Zonet ZVC7611 camera?
Hmm, it appears I have spoken too soon.
I was going to do a latency measurement similar to how Greg Mckaskle did it a while back (using the LEDs on the cRIO).
However, I'm having trouble getting the cRIO to create a TCP connection with the camera.
The camera does work on my computer. (As far as I can tell, you can only capture jpegs, not cgi images, so it does require slight modification to the camera software. What I've done is just use the "get image" inline in my code, instead of having it asynchronous.

Of course, I'm not one to just send the image back to the driver station.)
So, i'll get a latency measurement once I get it working. Sorry about that.

EDIT:
I got it working now. There were just some troubles with IP address.
The latency is around 400ms on a small image image (175 x 144), 500ms on medium (320 x 240), and 550ms on large (640 x 480). These values may vary by at least 100ms each way. It's a cheap camera.
Here's a screenshot of the latency test:

(When the case is FALSE, it just passes the data through)
__________________
-- Marshal Horn

Last edited by kamocat : 16-08-2010 at 01:23.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-08-2010, 01:42
qnetjoe qnetjoe is offline
Registered User
AKA: Joe Daily
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Austin
Posts: 51
qnetjoe is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to qnetjoe Send a message via MSN to qnetjoe Send a message via Yahoo to qnetjoe
Re: Legal Cameras

More than likely the camera will have to be supported by NI's IMAQdx driver. Currently only Bassler and AXIS camera's are supported. The camera would have to be a fast ethernet (aka 10/100), as the cRIO-FRC does not have any gigabit ethernet port like other CompatRIOs

Here is a small portion from the following link
Quote:
Driver used: IMAQdx 3.5 - installed with Vision Acquisition Software November 2009.
No framegrabber required. Images are processed onboard.

National Instruments supports Internet Protocol (IP) cameras manufactured by Basler and Axis. IP cameras are the only type of cameras currently supported by the Compact RIO. An IP camera typically sends a compressed image over an ethernet connection. Axis IP cameras must have firmware version 2.0 (or later) to be supported.
The big question to ask is would another camera help? Personally I don't think as the vision processing is CPU limited and there is only so much we can get out of a 400Mhz processor.

Just for reference I am able to process 7-8 fps (125-166ms) at 320x240with an AXIS 206.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-08-2010, 08:09
Greg McKaskle Greg McKaskle is offline
Registered User
FRC #2468 (Team NI & Appreciate)
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 4,756
Greg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond reputeGreg McKaskle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal Cameras

The FRC camera lobs doesn't currently use the IMAQdx driver. They added support for Axis after WPILib was released. The camera support is straight tcp.

Greg McKaskle
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cameras merybar Electrical 6 30-01-2008 08:08
Digital Cameras Clark Gilbert Chit-Chat 16 07-12-2003 22:59
Cameras? George T General Forum 3 03-02-2003 22:50
cameras archiver 2000 3 23-06-2002 23:09
On-Board Cameras archiver 2000 0 23-06-2002 22:28


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:26.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi