Math...

[RyanN]

What is really a shocker is how many high schools, or even middle schools, allow students to use calculators, but then when the students go to college, calculators are banned in the math department.

At least that's how it is where I go to school. You try to get a student raised upon using a calculator to get a B or higher in college Calculus. It's not easy. I'm not going to lie. I struggled and worked really hard to earn my measly B's.

It's not really the importance that they need to know how to do it just to know how to do it. It's more of understanding why certain concepts work the way they do.

Nice post Pavan.

[Garret]

I see a lot of truth in this poster. At my high school, my old one, I see that most kids undervalue or do not at all see the value of math or science, or any subject for that matter. During class I see kids who are just sitting in the back and spend the entire class on their iPhone texting or checking facebook. I see kids, kids in AP and honors, texting in class, disrespecting teachers (this part makes me really mad), cheating (you wouldn't believe how absurd this got), and just constantly complaining about how teacher so and so gives us "so much homework" (taking notes on a chapter due next week) or "Why do we have to learn history". I get frustrated with kids today (even though I am still one) because I see an overall devaluement of education and that most kids (at my old school) only care about facebook or other stuff like that. I see the importance of social interaction and having fun but I really do not think it is necessary to be on your computer, iPhone, or whatever for most of the day.
Also I understand what it is like to not be good at school, I have ADD (pretty bad too) and struggle everyday to focus on school and especially struggle to get homework done. I am not one of those kids who is just naturally smart and does not know why other kids aren't necessarily smart.

This poster does in my opinion embody what many of the modern day American students have become. I left my old high school because I disapproved of the cheating and apathetical attitude towards school. As a student who has had to deal with this I think the poster's message is quite spot on.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

The purpose of written communication is to gain an understanding between the writer and the reader.

Whether the writer is gender/politically correct or not, the information and meaning of the poster is well conveyed and its purpose served.

It does in that it continues to underscore the male dominance and mentality in science, math, and technology. HE'LL helps move that attitude right along.

Good poster - good message - but could have been great by keeping to the comparison of the slide rule and the power of the cell phone. That's the true message: the use (and misuse) of power, knowledge, and meaningful application.

Jane

[buildmaster5000]

Originally Posted by StuMac

I wasn't allowed to bring in my slide rule during one of my calculus finals. Apparently It could lead to me cheating. Yet I was allowed to bring my programmable calculator. Odd.

I use a calculator with more computing power than used to go to the moon every time I do calculus. Why can we not get back to the moon people?

[EricH]

I'm thinking that computers these days easily have more computing power than the lander and the command module combined, in a smaller package.

Why can't we go back to the moon? We don't want to. It's "been there, done that". My guess is that if we want to go back, we'll have to do it as a testing ground (supply depot, "halfway" point, etc.) for Mars. I'd rather have something go wrong on the Moon than on Mars--it's a LOT faster to get back, or get help out there.

On the original topic, apathy and distractedness are rampant these days. There is so much more fun stuff to do than homework... But guess what's more important?

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by EricH

On the original topic, apathy and distractedness are rampant these days. There is so much more fun stuff to do than homework... But guess what's more important?

For the men and women responsible for Apollo, it was fun. (Or at least, enjoyable & worth their time). You don't work 24/7 without incentive, and as a government project, money wasn't the incentive.

These people are still around. A friend of a friend got hired by SpaceX, and if he's the average employee, they are both smart and incredibly hard working.

[EricH]

These days, I think a lot of students think that homework (and chores, for that matter) is not fun. They don't want to do that. I would guess that the folks who did Apollo figured that it was a) fun, b) worth their time, and c) really cool. I'm also going to guess that most of them at least took the time to do their homework right...

There are companies out there where employees are passionate and have fun. SpaceX is just one example. That's the type of place you want to work, if you can, and you're passionate about the same sort of thing.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

On the original topic, apathy and distractedness are rampant these days. There is so much more fun stuff to do than homework... But guess what's more important?

"These days"? What's changed?

While I'm always against apathetic students who don't care, I'd rather we stop pretending that student apathy is a new, society-destroying problem. Apathetic students who didn't like school have been a part of every generation, and it's annoying and condescending to hear people older than me tell me how bad everyone who was born the same year as me is at everything.

I'd love to ask any of the engineers on the Apollo project if they LOVED slide rules, or if they seriously thought every eighth grade math assignment engaged them. I think the premise of this thread is a bit off. We're not doomed to societal decline because we don't care anymore, but rather school absolutely sucks at being engaging to the brightest children of today. Classes are too easy (and thus boring and a waste of time), too repetitive, and too intellectually empty for the best and brightest of today. That's one of the reasons the FIRST program is so important; it gives something to high schoolers that they can actually care enough about, and it shows them there's light at the end of the secondary school education tunnel.

We can't just pretend that telling students that they need to find mindless drivel "fun" will solve the world's problems.

[MagiChau]

I agree with the opinion that many people seperate learning from fun. Somehow people got the notion that going to school and learning is not suppose to be enjoyable. It is suppose to be work.

I myself enjoyed doing calculations without a calculator and then afterwards checking if my calculations were right. I continue doing this until I reach a point where I need to use a calculator due to me being unable to do the calculation. If I recall correctly, in my area, the heavy use of calculators are when kids enter 6th grade. By the time they reach high school it is likely people forget how to even do 2 digit by 2 digit multiplication and long division with a pencil and paper. I don't know how it is in other parts of the United States.

Also, I think a lot of kids discourage themselves from learning math. Thinking it is too hard and give up on understanding. In the middle school here you may pass a test in 5th grade or be recommended by a math teacher to take the math course that is one year ahead of your grade level. I hear people refer to it as "smart math." This shows people think they have to have a natural gift with mathematics to be able to do well in math to me. This "smart math" after all is suppose to be learned by the kid the very next school year. After associating math with smart people will use their lack of natural ability as an excuse to why they're not doing well instead of studying hard to understand.

Maybe the problem is with this country is how we view education. We don't think of it as a blessing to be able to go to a place where we could learn with a person that could help us understand the material face to face. People think of it as a chore you have to do almost all the days of the week for less than half the day. Your test and quiz aren't rude benchmarks to see if you know the material, they are the obstacle that you must overcome to get to your goal whether that is passing the class, getting money for doing well, or achieving a goal of a good "grade." I recognize that quizzes and tests aren't the only way to tell if a person learned the material for that is why I refer to it as rude.

People view summer vacation as a liberation from having to learn instead of a break from following the forced schedule of school. If only more people were willing to learn some new things during summer break. This further implies to me the thinking of how learning is a chore I do not wish to do.

Just some mumblings of what I think.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by buildmaster5000

I use a calculator with more computing power than used to go to the moon every time I do calculus. Why can we not get back to the moon people?

Because no matter how powerful the computer is that you strap to your backside, you can't ride it to the moon.

Blake

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I'd love to ask any of the engineers on the Apollo project if they LOVED slide rules, or if they seriously thought every eighth grade math assignment engaged them. I think the premise of this thread is a bit off. We're not doomed to societal decline because we don't care anymore, but rather school absolutely sucks at being engaging to the brightest children of today. Classes are too easy (and thus boring and a waste of time), too repetitive, and too intellectually empty for the best and brightest of today. That's one of the reasons the FIRST program is so important; it gives something to high schoolers that they can actually care enough about, and it shows them there's light at the end of the secondary school education tunnel.

We can't just pretend that telling students that they need to find mindless drivel "fun" will solve the world's problems.

I'm curious if public schooling has actually declined in overall quality over the past 50 years. We like to say it has, but I'm willing to bet that your average student has significantly more access to higher level classes than they did 50 years ago. My Dad was an honors student who went on to get a degree in Engineering Physics and he graduated high school without taking Calculus I. Had I stayed at my original high school, I could've taken through Calc II, and since Maine has a magnet school I was lucky enough to take Statistics, Differential Equations, and Linear Algebra before I graduated.

On the other hand, access to hands-on classes has definitely declined in my area. All of the schools in Midcoast Maine got rid of their wood/metal/auto shops in the '90s. There is still a vocational school, but its schedule is designed to fit with the lower level classes, not the college prep ones.

Interesting discussion!

[iwin2000]

I had to look up "slide rule" because I didn't know what it was. I guess that says something. :/

[demosthenes2k8]

Haha, I want to bring a slide rule to Calculus, just for laughs.
Especially since I have no idea how to use it.

[Chris is me]

I think focusing on the "slide rule" bit is really missing the point entirely. The slide rule is for all intents and purposes a mechanical calculator - knowing how to use a slide rule doesn't make you better at math than someone using a calculator.

[Dancin103]

What was posted is spot on. I only graduated in 2008 however, in my high school you had to learn how to do calculus, chemistry, and physics with out a calculator. If you couldn't, there was no mercy. Calculators need to be taken away and students need to be forced to learn the long hand way first, then learn their calculator, but only if it's necessary.

On a side note to the subject, I was playing blackjack at school with other students and they at one point had to use their cell phones to calculate what they had on the table. To me, that's sad.

Cass