Sustainability In FRC Teams

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

This is a very cool post coming from the viewpoint of one of the companies that 'gets' FIRST. It would be helpful to see more of these viewpoints and to understand them and also, for sponsors and potential sponsors to see and think of ways to help with the sustainability issues. Very cool, Marie. Thank you!

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Here's some questions regarding alumni. As Ed has pointed out - instability can occur for various reasons that he has mentioned and for other reasons as well. "Who will bear the torch for the students once they graduate?" How are teams and their alumni keeping the alumni involved and interested in the continual growth and development of the team? There are so many areas that alumni can help in just by being a felt presence of support for the current team. How can they help with the sustainability areas for their team and for teams in areas where they now reside? How can they be made or encouraged to understand that they are valuable still?

Jane

As one of those alumni who has graduated, I'm helping to start a rookie team in my local community along with a coach from another FIRST team. I could have stayed with my current team, but there wasn't a need. They already have several coaches and a few alumni who pop in and out, but they still have a need as no FIRST team is ever perfect or can ever be perfect. I felt the need greater in the rookie team than in my team, which is true as it is currently just me and the coach and 12 students.

I hope we can create a successful team, I already see how people say rookie teams have it hard.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

I hope we can create a successful team, I already see how people say rookie teams have it hard.

In my opinion, a key to sustainability and to growing a successful team, is experience. You are bringing that (along with inspiration, enthusiasm, and wisdom) to the new team. That's very cool.

Have fun and enjoy this new experience,
Jane

[JesseK]

I can't speak for other local teams, yet after having more fun at an off-season event than we've ever had during a competition season event (from a holistic perspective) our new strategy seems to be register the $6k for 1 official event and get in the lottery for championships. NOT planning to go to St Louis and then winning a spot means we pay 30-60% more just because we didn't reserve transportation/hoteling far in advance.

If we don't make it to St Louis, then we will gladly attend 2-3 off-season events with the money we would have spent on the Championships. It has become very apparent to us that to spread FIRST's message at any accelerated rate is to do so at our own team's detriment in the form of sponsorship dollars that are spread very thin. So this year we will do more with less, for our own school's students (for once).

What kind of plan can FIRST enact to increase the amount of students without severely increasing the amount of burden upon the current mentors of a team (i.e. fundraising)? We all need to work on finding an answer. We all need to figure out how to keep from spending 25.3 million dollars on FRC every year. Right now FIRST incurs a cost of ~$600 per student (~$15k per team) just for a team to get a KOP and go to one regional (of which the team pays $6k). This is according to FIRST's 2009 annual report.

What can we do in addition to FIRST's current objectives (2-day events, MI model, etc) to increase quality while (at a minimum) maintaining costs? Sell light bulbs? Fund raise by recycling? Reduce the NFL-wannabe-ness of Regional events (i.e. hold higher quantity of smaller events in inexpensive venues culminating in REAL super bowls)? Should we agree to raise the bar of entry to a minimum amount of students per team? Or should we craft and enact programs to give incentives for teams in saturated areas to consolidate?

I do not believe my current FRC team will exist in 5 years unless the over-arching FRC model changes. Of course given that I didn't know Jack 5 years ago, who knows what I know now.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Schools think nothing of building a track, a soccer field, a baseball field, and a football field. Bleachers, lights, and then maintaining all that year round. In addition they eat a huge chunk of teams expenses (travel, equipment). Schools are the "Angel" investor in terms of sports. That's why so-called "pay to play" is still so inexpensive. Selling this sport to the schools and getting their decision-makers (the union leadership and the administration) to buy-in should be a huge focus.

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

One thing I have to ask, why the willingness to be the "Angel" investor for sports but, in many cases, not for robotics? What do sports provide that FIRST doesn't and how do we need to change to provide that.

Money. Sports bring in money. People PAY to watch the football games/basketball games etc. Alumni donate because their high school made it to state. Robotics doesn't bring in money-not to the school, atleast. You can't compare building a new football stadium to spending that 50k on a team because the football stadium, in theory (atleast), brings in money.

Originally Posted by synth3tk

I think what's trying to be said, is that while FIRST wants to have a team in every school (which is an acceptable goal), that will never happen if they don't make at least an effort to help some of the teams that are in need, since there are teams continually dropping while FIRST focuses on starting new teams. Of course, there may never be a year where no teams leave the program, but you should at least try to retain the ones that can be helped.

Originally Posted by Bertman

Another under the fund raising flag is the proportional relationship between team growth, number of teams in an area, and the size of the pie that the teams are trying to slice up. Or in other words in a small or medium sized city there is a finite number of business and resources for teams to approach for sponsorship. As the number of teams in a given area increases the slice of the pie for each team can get smaller and some teams will be squeezed out if they do not put the same effort into fund raising as other teams. Like it or not, I believe this to be a truth, and there are lessons to be learned here also.

Why is everyone so insistant that having a team in every highschool means every highschool has its own team? Having a team in every highschool is totally plausible. Milwaukee Public Schools (MPS) has atleast 20 high schools. If MPS had five or six FRC teams, we could cover all the highschools. How? By having one team be composed of multiple schools. There are a couple teams I know of that do this: MOE (365), More Robotics (1714), UPS (1675), CORE Robotics (2062), and I'm sure there are more.

The second quote supports my idea of combining schools (and maybe even teams). If two struggling teams with 7 kids and 7k combine, they have 14k and 14 kids (numbers are arbitrary). If you combine the three local schools of smallsville, state; then you have only one group asking the local businesses for money.

Just my thoughts, a little surprised no one else said that yet...

[J93Wagner]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

Why is everyone so insistant that having a team in every highschool means every highschool has its own team? Having a team in every highschool is totally plausible. Milwaukee Public Schools (MPS) has atleast 20 high schools. If MPS had five or six FRC teams, we could cover all the highschools. How? By having one team be composed of multiple schools. There are a couple teams I know of that do this: MOE (365), More Robotics (1714), UPS (1675), CORE Robotics (2062), and I'm sure there are more.

The second quote supports my idea of combining schools (and maybe even teams). If two struggling teams with 7 kids and 7k combine, they have 14k and 14 kids (numbers are arbitrary). If you combine the three local schools of smallsville, state; then you have only one group asking the local businesses for money.

Personally, I agree with you. It is a very good way to get around the worst things that would really get in the way of an effective and sustainable team. Team 93 also does this and we've had some success over the years.

[DEVIL'S ADVOCATE]However, but there is a problem you may have not noticed. Your effective presence at your main school becomes concentrated there, which has happened to N.A.C. Team 93 (my team). So in reality, you are really only effectively covering one school, not three. Why?

It comes down to word of mouth and logistics. Word of mouth is a problem because, let's face it, the people most likely to find FIRST are the friends of FIRSTer's. To circumvent this, a lot of communications and demos to spread the word around those other schools would have to done.

How does logistics come into play? Well, when most kids are freshmen, the time they are most likely to find out about and join FIRST, they probably don't have reliable transportation to and from your main location unless you figure something out.

Both problems are workable, but it requires a lot of extra work and even then not everyone who would love to will actually be able to participate. [/DEVIL'S ADVOCATE]

Point is, it isn't a perfect solution, although it is good. So a decision about which path would be taken would have to be made in each circumstance that would work the best for that particular school or group of schools.

[Brandon_L]

Id just like to throw this in:

Our team has always been a one event team, which means about $5,000 for entry. All our parts were from our own old abandoned auto shop. That means we paid exactly the minimum every year. We had the NASA grant for 3 years, and no longer do. We are having SO much trouble getting just the 5,000 and whenever I read something like "Oh, our team just fell short of our $30,000 goal " I'm not gonna lie, it somewhat angers me.

I don't blame anyone specifically. I think the cause is being babied by NASA for all three years, then just being dumped on our own. I think the NASA grant is great in the short run, but ruins a team in the long run. I think what should be done is some sort of program from FIRST or anywhere really. Not a program that just gives the teams money, but one that shows them how to. How to get sponsors and host SUCCESSFUL fundraisers (which has eluded us).

Were at about ~$3,500 right now and have to I believe December 3rd to get 1,500. We had $1,000 left over from last years NASA grant and what little we did earn, $2,000 from the township, and the meek 500 we earned from September until now. I have major doubts we'll even be a team this year.

And it doesn't help coming from a school where were looked at as a "club" and no one knows what we really are and refuse to even go to one meeting. We handed out over 700 fliers for a pizza night at a place that donated %20 and we got $100, which we think most of was just donated from the pizza place out of pity.

</rant>

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

Id just like to throw this in:

Our team has always been a one event team, which means about $5,000 for entry. All our parts were from our own old abandoned auto shop. That means we paid exactly the minimum every year. We had the NASA grant for 3 years, and no longer do. We are having SO much trouble getting just the 5,000 and whenever I read something like "Oh, our team just fell short of our $30,000 goal " I'm not gonna lie, it somewhat angers me.

What exactly do you mean by the last line?

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

What exactly do you mean by the last line?

Nothing to the other teams, I just get mixed emotions of "HOW?!?!?" and "Why can't we do that? Whats wrong with us?" and 200 other things go through my mind

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

Nothing to the other teams, I just get mixed emotions of "HOW?!?!?" and "Why can't we do that? Whats wrong with us?" and 200 other things go through my mind

Frustration.

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Do you sit down and work through/talk about the questions with your teammates?

I think what should be done is some sort of program from FIRST or anywhere really. Not a program that just gives the teams money, but one that shows them how to. How to get sponsors and host SUCCESSFUL fundraisers (which has eluded us).

I've had conversations w/folks about this. A concern that I have with young teams qualifying for monies but not receiving any type of training/understanding/encouragement in the areas of become self-sufficient and self-sustaining worries me. Your post has voiced my worries. I wasn't thinking of the NASA grant but I was thinking of other grants that I'm aware of. So many young teams are busy thinking about the upcoming/current season that they aren't thinking/projecting/planning for/setting goals for the future - when the monies are no longer available to them.

Jane

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Frustration.

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Do you sit down and work through/talk about the questions with your teammates?

Jane

No, Not with the entire team. Just a few..

This year we have about 20 kids. The $500 (not exactly, I think the real number is like $520) came from 5 kids, and I myself have got $270 of it from 3 businesses and I have our teams packets at 3 different businesses currently waiting to hear back from them.

Im not trying to take out frustration on anyone, I just don't get it. Sorry for hijacking this topic =/

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

Sorry for hijacking this topic =/

You haven't. Your team is struggling to be self-sustaining. You are spot on.

Jane

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

No, Not with the entire team. Just a few..

This year we have about 20 kids. The $500 (not exactly, I think the real number is like $520) came from 5 kids, and I myself have got $270 of it from 3 businesses and I have our teams packets at 3 different businesses currently waiting to hear back from them.

Im not trying to take out frustration on anyone, I just don't get it. Sorry for hijacking this topic =/

It sounds like you have the desire, but the results aren't happening the way you like. You might want to do some research with other teams to find fundraising strategies that work for your team. It also sounds like you need to make the whole team aware of what needs to be raised, what they need to raise, and what methods you already thought of.

We raised 63k in 09, 35k last year, and are well on our way to 55k+ this year. In a poor agricultural town, with a small team. We're all normal people, it's just that the entire team is made aware of what we need to fundraise, and everyone is responsible for raising it (and we're willing to TRY anything).

Trust me, you get your ducks in a row, and you'll be raising way more than $5k easily.

[Brandon_L]

I tried convincing the mentor to make a rule along the lines of each student is responsible for raising $100 and involving 3 businesses. He cut it down to $50 and one business. We have a packet that we made for them to take around to businesses, they just seem to not want to do it.

[Mr. Van]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

We raised 63k in 09, 35k last year, and are well on our way to 55k+ this year. In a poor agricultural town, with a small team. We're all normal people, it's just that the entire team is made aware of what we need to fundraise, and everyone is responsible for raising it (and we're willing to TRY anything).

Ok, Adam - I'll take the bait. What ARE you guys doing for fundraising? (I'm assuming you are not talking about "team dues" or corporate/business funding as in grants or "sponsorship" but fundraising from your community. If you had 20 students in '09, each student brought in $1800.00 or $150/month. Every student, every month. That's a heck of a tally.

So...

How do you do it?

-Mr. Van
Robodox

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

We had the NASA grant for 3 years, and no longer do. We are having SO much trouble getting just the 5,000 and whenever I read something like "Oh, our team just fell short of our $30,000 goal " I'm not gonna lie, it somewhat angers me.

I don't blame anyone specifically. I think the cause is being babied by NASA for all three years, then just being dumped on our own. I think the NASA grant is great in the short run, but ruins a team in the long run.

Brandon-

The problems you are having are not isolated to your team, I'm sure you are aware of that. This thread started because there are obviously issues with sustaining FRC teams, which is something your team is encountering as we speak.

I know you mentioned you're not mad at the teams that raise $30K+, but you have to understand what many of those teams do in this offseason. These teams work constantly to go after businesses, grants, the government and achieve their goal for each year. Use it as inspiration, and keep pushing forward with the ideal goal being to become a sustainable team that can reach its financial goals year after year.

The NASA grant is a blessing, it does not hurt a team in the long run. The problem is, teams don't anticipate the drop off in funding and then are left high and dry with no plan. That is entirely the fault of the team who received the grant, not NASA for trying to get a team up and running.

In Boston, there are many teams who started from a very large donation from a foundation (~$300K) which my team helped secure. The teams that started on this grant had their registration fee paid for their first 3 years of existence. After that, the teams were on their own. The first teams in this program were started around 5 years ago and their stories are mixed. Some have thrived and developed into self-sustaining FRC teams that we are all proud of. Others have shriveled and died as soon as the funding was cut. Some still live on, but struggle to stay afloat year after year.

It's the responsibility of the teams to keep themselves going after they lose funding. I know many 10+ year veteran teams who have lost their sponsor that was with them on day 1. Some of these sponsors provided $10K+ to the veteran teams. My home team (11) lost our sponsor my senior year of high school. Our team was left with no funding, but it inadvertently started a fire under our you-know-whats. We blanketed the area with letters and demos, and before we knew it we were bringing in 3X the amount of money we did when we had our one big sponsor.

The point is, every team has to face the same challenge. For some teams its easier than others, definitely. However, it doesn't mean your situation is impossible, or that it hasn't been conquered before. Reaching out to the FIRST community is a great start to get tips on how to not only stay afloat, but thrive in your current situation.

I wish you the best of luck, and keep up the hard work.

-Brando