Welding Advice

[rees2001]

If you are serious about tig welding I would suggest teaming up with a local welding supply company and see if they can help with training and supplies. Our longest current sponsor is our local welding supply company. They have been an awesome partner. They provide us argon re-fills, tungsten, welding rod, and collets. See if there is a local company that also teaches classes. Every couple of years we team up with other local teams and teach a welding class there. It has worked out for the welding company, our sponsor purchased 2 welders from them and we have had other teams that have attended the trainings buy welding machines. We also do buy some things every couple of years. We purchased a second small tank for argon because you don't want to be welding on a Saturday night and have your tank run out. Welding helmets do need replacing after many years of use. We have had our Miller welder since 2004 and it still runs great.

It has been a nice relationship because I have helped send many qualified welders thier way to work in the shop and help teach thier welding classes. They like cheap young employees and the kids like the work.

As for the difficulty in tig welding... For some people practice makes perfect, classes help. For some (very few) it just comes naturally, I just discovered a sophomore on our team who is a natural. For many, you will never be a great welder, no big deal I'm sure you are good a something.

[Clem1640]

We opted for MIG, rather than TIG. Cost of equipment was the major deciding factor. We weld Al with MIG. We did not benefit from professional instruction (wish we had).

I'd love to do TIG, but in defense of MIG, the learning curve is not so steep and in our 2nd year of welding, we only broken two welds. Pretty good considering the severety of BREAKAWAY competition. Our robot has been through 7 competitions so far (one to go - Ramp Riot) and a goodly number of demos, so it's gotten a lot of abuse.

Two welding helmets are a must. Self darkening (electrochromic). Expensive but essential.

You'll need isolation. Welding curtains will do.

Make certain the welding area is absolutely cleared of easily flammable material (sawdust, paper,...) before welding.

Keep a fire extinguisher, bucket of water and bucket of sand (to quench burning Al) handy. Safety should be first-of-mind while welding.

We have found the benefits of welding to be substantial. It allows more freedom of design and is an enormous help in weight management.

[Starke]

Originally Posted by rees2001

It has been a nice relationship because I have helped send many qualified welders thier way to work in the shop and help teach thier welding classes. They like cheap young employees and the kids like the work.

I was/am one of those welders. I echo what Rees just said in all ways. Miller Welders seem to be reliable machines. Partnering with a local welding company has helped in huge ways.

Originally Posted by rees2001

As for the difficulty in tig welding... For some people practice makes perfect, classes help. For some (very few) it just comes naturally, I just discovered a sophomore on our team who is a natural. For many, you will never be a great welder, no big deal I'm sure you are good a something.

TIG welding is a skill that takes lots of practice to get decent at. Consistent practice helps a lot. Good luck and let us know if you need anything!

[thw]

TIG does a great job on aluminum but it takes skill and skill takes practice- lots of practice. I took a 20 hour TIG class where we spent almost every hour welding. Now I can weld 0.125 inch aluminum fairly consistently, 0.090 is questionable and 0.062 is out of the question. Perhaps some students will quickly master the skill of simultaniously controling the torch, the filler rod and the power pedal but that's a lot to expect.

[Dick Linn]

Irrespective of the type of welder, make sure that proper protective gear is worn. No skin should ever be exposed due to the intense UV light levels (especially TIG). Thin clothing and synthetics are unacceptable. I heard of a guy who ended up with a "sunburned" logo on his chest because the shirt passed the UV except where the logo was silkscreened on the shirt! A treated cotton welding jacket is cheap.

Aluminum must be absolutely clean for successful welding. Sanding or grinding should be done with a tool dedicated to Aluminum only. Degrease with a solvent but DO NOT use anything containing a chlorinated hydrocarbon! (Read this: http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm ) Brush away any oxides just prior to welding using a stainless steel brush that is dedicated for use on Aluminum only.

Here's a bit more on TIG welding Aluminum:

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...nt/tigalum.asp

My young one turned out to be a natural with TIG, after taking various community college welding classes. He started out with Oxy/Acetylene which helped with the filler-torch coordination needed for TIG. He even got a 3 month job reconditioning Inconel steam turbine blades at Alstom while he was still taking classes. The downside is that we now have 5 different welding rigs cluttering up the garage.

[JamesCH95]

Having used a Miller Diversion 165 and having experience TIG welding and teaching TIG welding I have some suggestions:

-Skip the Diversion unless you plan also buying a foot pedal. The finger control is handy for out-of-position welding, but is awkward to learn with. I would consider something from Everlast which is lighter-duty than the Miller, but a lower cost with more handy features.

-Spend extra money getting one or two good auto-tint helmets. I would get one with at least three light sensors (it sucks if all of the sensors become blocked for whatever reason, never happened with my 3-sensor lens but did with my 2-sensor lens). Observers/instructors can use solid lens helmets with no detriment.

-Get gloves with long cuffs, preferably a cuff that can be cinched over jacket sleeves. I really like my BSX welding jacket and gloves, best I've ever used but not the most expensive. $30 for the jacket and $20 for the gloves IIRC.

-If you're welding aluminum get 50Ar/50He mixed gas, makes TIG welding aluminum much easier than straight argon, worth every penny many times over. Get Ar as well if you plan to do steel welding.

-4340 AL rod will comfortably weld most aluminum alloys, this is your bread-and-butter welding rod. Be careful to ask for TIG rod, not to be confused with wire which usually refers to MIG wire.

-With TIG a welding apron isn't typically needed because there are no sparks or spatter.

-Get lanthanated or zirconated tungsten electrode packs (orange band and white band respectively). Pure tungsten is pure garbage and thoriated tungsten is radioactive . Get lots (1-2 packs of each size) of spare electrodes and nozzles, especially since your team is learning.

-Get a bench grinder to ONLY use for sharpening tungsten electrodes.

-Get an angle grinder with a flap sanding disc, this will make weld prep go very quickly.

-www.weldingtipsandtricks.com is just about the best website for practical welding advice. Jody, the guy who operates the site, is happy to answer questions via email and is very responsive. Read the pages on learning how to TIG weld aluminum, they are very useful.

Good luck! TIG welding is a great skill and not terribly difficult to learn. Just practice practice practice with bead on plate and you'll figure it out!

Feel free to PM or email me (jamesch13[at]gmail) with any questions as well!

[Katie_UPS]

Everyone is pretty much saying what I would've said.

As for learning to weld: aside from partnering up with local welding companies, any local technical colleges or universities (that have machine shops) should have a certified welder working with them who might be interested in helping out (my welding mentor is from the University of Wisconsin based in Milwaukee).

Also check with teams in the area and see if they can teach you guys. If you're willing to make the hike, we (1675) could probably work something out and we could do a saturday of getting you guys up to speed, but thats a distance and you seem to have plenty of resources close by.

Things to know:
Wire brushes are your friend.
Never underestimate the value in Proper Surface Preparation. Oxidation with TIG is a BIG DEAL. Too much (some might argue any) Oxidation makes welds that are both ugly and weak(er than clean welds).
If you get to "welding the robot" ready this year (but this applies always), make sure you always do a test weld on a different piece of the exact same material to dial the machine (but you'll probably learn this).
Now I'm digressing into welding tips and not general advice.

What has not been said though: Make sure you have a clean level surface of a different type of material (if you're just welding Al, a steel table does the job). If you have tables with bumps and the like, you're not going to get the piece you want.

Also, you have to have a bit bigger of tolerances with welding, because the heat warps the metal. There are "tricks" (but not really tricks) that you can do to "control" (but not really control)/minimize warping, but its important to keep in mind that you don't have absolute control over the final piece.

[thelittlesister]

I too agree with everyone, but if you can't get some local help then i would vote against it, but it really does help with a lot of practice. If you don't have enough practice with the machine then you will have problems. If you are looking for a welded frame for this build season you'd better move fast.
-Ally

[Dick Linn]

The Diversion 180 model does include a foot pedal.

If you are concerned about quality and support, I'd go with Miller (or Lincoln or ESAB or Hobart).

If you have questions, join the Hobart forum at http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/ There are some very experienced members there who are happy to help.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Dick Linn

The Diversion 180 model does include a foot pedal.

I see that from Miller it is not included, but from CyberWeld it is. Weird.

[Scott L.]

You must use a stainless steel brush to clean aluminum, any carbon steel brush will leave impurites. This is what I was told by TIG welders and also from my own experience.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Dick Linn

Aluminum must be absolutely clean for successful welding. Sanding or grinding should be done with a tool dedicated to Aluminum only. Degrease with a solvent but DO NOT use anything containing a chlorinated hydrocarbon! Brush away any oxides just prior to welding using a stainless steel brush that is dedicated for use on Aluminum only.

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

Never underestimate the value in Proper Surface Preparation.

Originally Posted by Scott L.

You must use a stainless steel brush to clean aluminum, any carbon steel brush will leave impurites.

It cannot be over-emphasized: ANY (any!) steel dust or even molecules will cause an Aluminum weld to be weak. ONLY Stainless steel brushes may be used, and these must never be used for any other metal. Get a small angle grinder as well.

Cleanliness is difficult but essential for welding aluminum. It oxidizes in a few seconds. Weld an inch or two, stop & clean, repeat.

Welding generates a lot of heat, and your metal will crack from thermal stress if you try to weld a long bead as one might attempt in steel. An inch at a time.

Acetone makes a suitable solvent, but of course it is dangerous and flammable.

Practice, practice, practice.

[jmichaelis]

Thank you all for the incredibly well thought out and thorough responses and advice. I think the best advice has been to reach out to an experienced welder locally. I'm currently hunting down a few leads with area colleges and pros, but if you have suggestions for someone from the Chicago area I'd be grateful. Again thanks for the huge response, its been really very valuable.

[roystur44]

For the biggest bang for your buck take a look at pop rivet technology. Joining two pieces of metal with pop rivets is fast and economical and in most cases can substitute for welding. As a mentor for the team I encourage the team to try to make use of fastener technology like pem nuts, nuts and bolts, and pop rivets before resorting to welding to join metal.


Roy

[Dick Linn]

In some cases, Team 975 used 10-32 cap screws to assemble a frame. Very strong and surprisingly cheap for a box of 100. Nyloc nuts were inexpensive as well. We got them at MSC.