Drive Team Configuration

[GaryVoshol]

Beside being able to operate the controls, the drivers need to be able to work well together. If the driver goes "left" as the arm operator tries to pick up "right" - not a recipe for success.

If you should decide to switch people around, be sure everyone who is partcipating knows the rules. I don't know how may stupid penalties have been called because there's someone new out there that doesn't know what is going on and does something illegal - blatantly illegal, something that drivers and HP's who were around from Match 1 would know enough not to try.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

...we switched our drivers almost every round. Our mentor wanted other people to try it.

i'll be the brutally honest one who says:

1. I hope we never get "randomly" assigned as your alliance partner.
2. We probably would never pick you as a partner in the eliminations.

Every match your partners are relying on you to do your very best, doing anything less is a disservice to them. Keeping a consistent driver is absolutely essential to good performance -- each match that goes by the driver will improve exponentially.

I love how if someone talks about intentionally "throwing a match" by not doing their best, the entire community flips out... but if someone talks about changing out their drivers...

-John

[Siri]

Most years, we have a driver and operator. In "arm" games like 2007, these roles have similar control demands and require excellent coordination between the two. This changes from game to game for us though, for instance 2009 was less operator intensive. In 2010, we really didn't use our operator much during the season at all. (In retrospect, we should have given them another official job.) The extra functions were relatively easy for our driver to control, but part of it was just lack of driver-operator coordination. Once we found an operator that fit in well, it got easier.

I'll vouch for the practice-practice-practice stances, though. Having been a
mechanical and pit captain, captain-manager, operator and coach, drive team practice is the most efficient way to improve your performance. Don't change your drive team!

Also, Karthik says, 'the role of the field coach cannot be overstated'. If you don't know what you're doing, find out! Ask fellow coaches (especially if they're from 71, 1114, 148*, 217, 45, 33...) and ask your drive team. Read and practice.

*EDIT: yes, listen to that guy. ^

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

And to be blunt, if you haven't figured out how to make a drive team successful, what makes you think your team will be able to pull a fully autonomous robot? Where do you get all this confidence from when you haven't been able to pull anything resembling AI together in the preseason? Before you get artificial intelligence down, you should be able to figure out how normal "human intelligent" drivers work.

Oh yea I remember, I won't be using ANY of the code I am writing before kick off on the robot. Im scrapping everything I do pre kickoff and doing it all over during the build. Never knew people took this so seriously.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Oh yea I remember, I won't be using ANY of the code I am writing before kick off on the robot. Im scrapping everything I do pre kickoff and doing it all over during the build. Never knew people took this so seriously.

I'm saying if in the past 6 months, with all your practice you didn't get anything close to what you wanted done, why do you thin with only 6 weeks you will be able to accomplish this?

Do you really want to jeopardize your own success? That's your right to do so. But what about the rest of the team, too? Are you going to put your own demands and delusions above them?

What about your alliance partners? Do you really think they want to be your guinea pigs for autonomy tests? There's a match going on and they probably want to win it.

[BX MARK]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Never knew people took this so seriously.

I have only been around for a year now and I can tell you that this is taken very, very seriously. After all that's why there is a huge forum just for Robotics.

[rsisk]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Never knew people took this so seriously.

Honesty and integrity should always be taken seriously. It's the lubrication that makes the world go round.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I'm saying if in the past 6 months, with all your practice you didn't get anything close to what you wanted done, why do you thin with only 6 weeks you will be able to accomplish this?

Do you really want to jeopardize your own success? That's your right to do so. But what about the rest of the team, too? Are you going to put your own demands and delusions above them?

What about your alliance partners? Do you really think they want to be your guinea pigs for autonomy tests? There's a match going on and they probably want to win it.

True, but remember, there are at least 8 programmers this year. I'm the only one attempting the automation, I'm sure all the other guys can write the robot code fine. Now that makes me sound like the black sheep but honestly I can say that I can write the full human controlling code in less than a week. May be I am selfish for trying this automation thing. I do not believe in failures. Even if I do not accomplish my full automation, there will be a big platform to work with during the automation mode. Also I learn from that experience that I can apply later on. And when my full automation does work as intended, the code written by the other programmers might not ever run because the robot would be stuck in the automation loop. May be I am just quixotic and being too idealistic. In my eyes, being idealistic is better than beating your self up because of your lack of self esteem.



About the guinea pigs that I call my alliance members. They are not the only guinea pigs, my whole life is a guinea pig.
Taken from JaneYoung's signature.

"Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering
can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved."
Helen Keller (1880-1968)

My whole life is a learning experience, it is inevitable that there will be people that are going to be guinea pigs in my life experience. May be I am stating it too harshly but this stage in my life is just a stepping stone. Its not the zenith of my life.

We are all guinea pigs for each other. From the experiences we all share, we all take something different from it.

edit:
I honestly don't care if we win a single match. I believe that this competition is about what we get out from the experience that matters not the win or loss. Because 30 years from now, it won't matter how many matches we won, what kind of costume we wore or any of that. What will matter is what we learned and how we use it.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

About the guinea pigs that I call my alliance members. They are not the only guinea pigs, my whole life is a guinea pig.

We seem to have hijacked the OP's thread.

David,
What I consider to be a great part of the competition aspect is strategy. Many teams study each other via the Blue Alliance and videos and communicate with each other throughout the season, networking and building a strong foundation of respect and understanding. In my opinion, ChiefDelphi serves that purpose: building respect with one another.

Granted, there are teams that wing it - stumbling through build and the competition season without fully preparing as a competitive team that can be viewed as a prospective alliance partner by other FRC teams. Sometimes, it takes years to gain respect and to learn to understand the opportunities that avail themselves to those who pay attention, are willing to learn from the best, and dig deeper into understanding what it means to be a competitive FRC team. True, there are members of teams, and perhaps, whole teams, who are in it for the experience, regardless of how well they compete. If you think about it - a lot of money has been spent just to have an experience. At some point, the individual and the team, as a whole, has to step up to the plate and take some well-practiced swings, focused on hitting one out of the park.

There are robotics competitions that switch out drivers in each match. BEST is one of those events. What we have learned when competing in BEST - is to have the driver selection process in place and enforce it. When the drivers have garnered their positions - then they have to commit to serious practice times before each competition, learning how to work together as a team in order to support each other and compete well. The robot doesn't drive itself - even in autonomous. It takes brains, know-how, strategy, practice, and communication in order for the robot to perform well and consistently in every aspect. The guinea pig time, if there is going to be any, should be in the shop, not on the field.

I love the quote in my signature and I'm glad to see it quoted. That said - it has to be applied to the discussions that you like to generate. It's about digging deep and learning from the process. It is not about staying in one place, spinning your wheels all the time, generating noise.

One more thought - in this competition you have the opportunity to work with, compete with and against, and learn from the best in the fields of science, technology, and engineering. That is no small thing. They should not be considered guinea pigs by any stretch of the imagination. They should be considered role models and leaders who are very knowledgeable and experienced.

Take time to absorb some of the responses made to your posts, David. Absorb them, think about them, and look at them from a different perspective. They are gifts.

Jane

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

We seem to have hijacked the OP's thread.

David,
What I consider to be a great part of the competition aspect is strategy. Many teams study each other via the Blue Alliance and videos and communicate with each other throughout the season, networking and building a strong foundation of respect and understanding. In my opinion, ChiefDelphi serves that purpose: building respect with one another.

Granted, there are teams that wing it - stumbling through build and the competition season without fully preparing as a competitive team that can be viewed as a prospective alliance partner by other FRC teams. Sometimes, it takes years to gain respect and to learn to understand the opportunities that avail themselves to those who pay attention, are willing to learn from the best, and dig deeper into understanding what it means to be a competitive FRC team. True, there are members of teams, and perhaps, whole teams, who are in it for the experience, regardless of how well they compete. If you think about it - a lot of money has been spent just to have an experience. At some point, the individual and the team, as a whole, has to step up to the plate and take some well-practiced swings, focused on hitting one out of the park.

There are robotics competitions that switch out drivers in each match. BEST is one of those events. What we have learned when competing in BEST - is to have the driver selection process in place and enforce it. When the drivers have garnered their positions - then they have to commit to serious practice times before each competition, learning how to work together as a team in order to support each other and compete well. The robot doesn't drive itself - even in autonomous. It takes brains, know-how, strategy, practice, and communication in order for the robot to perform well and consistently in every aspect. The guinea pig time, if there is going to be any, should be in the shop, not on the field.

I love the quote in my signature and I'm glad to see it quoted. That said - it has to be applied to the discussions that you like to generate. It's about digging deep and learning from the process. It is not about staying in one place, spinning your wheels all the time, generating noise.

One more thought - in this competition you have the opportunity to work with, compete with and against, and learn from the best in the fields of science, technology, and engineering. That is no small thing. They should not be considered guinea pigs by any stretch of the imagination. They should be considered role models and leaders who are very knowledgeable and experienced.

Take time to absorb some of the responses made to your posts, David. Absorb them, think about them, and look at them from a different perspective. They are gifts.

Jane

May be guinea pigs were not the right words to use, but thanks again for your input.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

May be guinea pigs were not the right words to use, but thanks again for your input.

You are always welcome. Think of some better words and let me know via pm - we can talk about it if you would like.

Jane

[Tom Ore]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Also I learn from that experience that I can apply later on.

Keep in mind that anyone can learn from their own mistakes. Learning from other people's mistakes may be more difficult but that is how we truly advance.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by JVN

i'll be the brutally honest one who says:

1. I hope we never get "randomly" assigned as your alliance partner.
2. We probably would never pick you as a partner in the eliminations.

Every match your partners are relying on you to do your very best, doing anything less is a disservice to them. Keeping a consistent driver is absolutely essential to good performance -- each match that goes by the driver will improve exponentially.

I love how if someone talks about intentionally "throwing a match" by not doing their best, the entire community flips out... but if someone talks about changing out their drivers...

-John

As a team going to both of our regionals with 589, I'm a bit worried.

David, you may want to make a fully autonomous robot, but to attempt to do so and field a noncompetitive robot is disrespectful to every other team there.

My team (and your team) pays a lot of money to compete, in a competition, and we plan to win. To field anything but the most competitive robot is inappropriate.

They say it's not about the robot, and that the lessons, etc. that result are what are important; well, if you don't put the most you can in the most competitive robot you can, you won't get the lessons out of this program you should.

In engineering, it's important to use the appropriate tools and not more resources than are required. Building a completely autonomous robot for a teleoperated competition may be cool, but it's bad engineering. A robot with many automated and autonomous portions to make it easier on the drivers (while maintaining driver control), is good engineering.

I could keep going, but you're unlikely to consider these words anyway.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

David, you may want to make a fully autonomous robot, but to attempt to do so and field a noncompetitive robot is disrespectful to every other team there.

My team (and your team) pays a lot of money to compete, in a competition, and we plan to win. To field anything but the most competitive robot is inappropriate.

I take that as a challenge: see you at the regionals. I will do in the best of my abilities to program a very competitive, fully autonomous robot.

[BJC]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

I take that as a challenge: see you at the regionals. I will do in the best of my abilities to program a very competitive, fully autonomous robot.

Well... Good Luck then, and a Very Merry Christmas!