Go to Post Students dream up the ideas for bots, it is than up to the mentors and engineers to make these dreams a reality. - dddriveman [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-12-2010, 22:29
ttldomination's Avatar
ttldomination ttldomination is offline
Sunny
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Roanoke, TX
Posts: 2,066
ttldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

I am not going to judge on what one team does or does not do, but I will provide an example.

In 2009, we were grouped with teams 1051 and 1746 in the eliminations. During the semi-finals. We won the first match, and lost the second match. In the third match, I noticed the referee throw up a penalty flag in the middle of the match, but was surprised to see that no penalty was assessed in the score.

It wasn't until about 10 seconds later that we found out that our alliance had been disqualified because the coach on one of our teams touched the controls. The team in question ran three separate drive teams, and the coach on the drive team in during the match in question happened to be the driver in another drive team set, and when he noticed something wrong, his instincts took over and he reached in to adjust a potentiometer.

Now we don't blame this team at all, they performed extremely well and we were grateful for everything they did, but one can't help but think of what could've been.

Of course, I'm not against substituting a bad driver or a driver who seems to have a lot going on in his or her mind, but I do like consistency, especially when it comes to developing skills and general know hows of a robot and a game.

Anyways, enjoy the break, and here's to a good 2011 for everyone!!!
- Sunny
__________________
1261: 2007-2012
1648: 2013-2014
5283: 2015
Reply With Quote
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-12-2010, 22:42
R.C.'s Avatar
R.C. R.C. is online now
2017... Oooh Kill em, Swerve!
AKA: Owner, WestCoast Products
FRC #1323 (MadTown Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Madera, CA
Posts: 2,174
R.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond reputeR.C. has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
I take that as a challenge: see you at the regionals. I will do in the best of my abilities to program a very competitive, fully autonomous robot.
David,

Your failing to see the point. Adam suggested that you use your programming skills to help the drivers and the TEAM . With your abilities you could:

-Create a competitive autonomous routine
-Allow better control of the robot for drivers
-Implement more sensors that would provide valuable feedback
-Design a dashboard for you team.
-Automate tasks that would be hard for drivers (such as re cockk the kicker after kicking the 2010 soccer ball and having the kicker go to a desired position).

There are so many different and valuable things you can do to put your team in the best position to win. I believe there was a thread talking about how missions to the moon/mars are not fully autonomous and require some sort of human interaction.

A fully autonomous crappy robot isn't really that amazing, a well built winning robot is hands down much more amazing.

Its very foolish for you to ignore the advice of very talented and respectable CD members. To be honest, my team has worked all year long. Even in the off season. If my team was in the top 8 and we lost a spot cause our alliance partner used us as a "guinea pig", I would be very very upset and so would many of our parents/mentors.

Taking everyones advice here on CD as a challenge makes you look quiet stupid, it doesn't hurt for you to stop an say "Man I was wrong" and take a new direction.

Adam said it best:

"In engineering, it's important to use the appropriate tools and not more resources than are required. Building a completely autonomous robot for a teleoperated competition may be cool, but it's bad engineering. A robot with many automated and autonomous portions to make it easier on the drivers (while maintaining driver control), is good engineering."

Also take some time and think about the posts, don't reply back right away cause you HAVE to leave a reply.

-RC
__________________
R.C.
Owner, WestCoast Products || Twitter
MadTown Robotics Team 1323

Last edited by R.C. : 24-12-2010 at 22:51.
Reply With Quote
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-12-2010, 22:58
Basel A's Avatar
Basel A Basel A is offline
It's pronounced Basl with a soft s
AKA: @BaselThe2nd
FRC #3322 (Eagle Imperium)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Posts: 1,924
Basel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond reputeBasel A has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.C. View Post
A fully autonomous crappy robot isn't really that amazing, a well built winning robot is hands down much more amazing.
While I, in David's position, would take your advice, I don't necessarily agree with this. A fully autonomous robot that actually played the game, though not necessarily very well, would be rather impressive, at least to me.

By playing the game, I don't mean, followed a ball until it's picked up, then turned towards the goal and shot. I mean intelligently finds the closest or easiest game piece to grab while avoiding obstacles, knows not to shoat with an opponent in the way, and finally but precisely finds the goal with the game piece. Anything less than that really isn't playing the game.

Yes, that probably wouldn't be the greatest use of human resources, to use a talented programmer to recreate the most basic human driver, but that is award winning (Innovation in Control...) and a valuable experience for the programmer in question.

That said, it would probably hurt the team to a certain extent, and I can't imagine a potential drive team would be happy to see their places taken by a less competent AI. So David, if you really are going to try this, which I believe you will, if your AI is worse than a human driver, don't expect it to be used. However, if it is actually better, then that is a significant accomplishment.
__________________
Team 2337 | 2009-2012 | Student
Team 3322 | 2014-Present | College Student
“Be excellent in everything you do and the results will just happen.”
-Paul Copioli
Reply With Quote
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-12-2010, 22:58
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,621
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
I take that as a challenge: see you at the regionals. I will do in the best of my abilities to program a very competitive, fully autonomous robot.
Did his entire post go completely over your head? Seriously?

It's your duty in FRC to your teammates and alliance partners to put the most competitive robot possible on the field. A fully autonomous robot (assuming you do it, as literally hundreds of posts about the difficulties of such a system have again gone completely over your head) will in no way be better than a teleoperated robot with only 6 weeks of work.

Though honestly, you're lacking something far more important to your alliance partners than a good robot: good listening skills. Though, hey, everyone else in the world is your guinea pig anyway, you won't need to coordinate with them.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
...2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
---
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
...2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design
...2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
...2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
...2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 Minnesota 10,000 Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-12-2010, 02:08
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,730
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

David. Talk to 33 or 111. They have some of the most automated robots in the competition every year. They could probably make a serious run at a fully-autonomous robot if they wanted to. They don't. There is a reason for this!

33 has automation built into a lot of functions. A filter they wrote years ago went onto a sponsor's vehicle a year or two later with little modification. They were one of the first teams to do shift-on-the-fly--with a 4-speed gearbox that shifted smoothly. They write the automation code so that the operator can tell the robot what device X needs to be doing, and the robot just does it with no further input, if it can be done safely. Read the 2007 Behind the Design book.

111, same thing. They've built some complex robots, and the code to match. They did a 4-5 joint arm a few years back. (See the same book.) If they didn't have some form of automation, they'd be crazy.

1024, back in 2008, ran a full avoidance program (until the sensors smoked and flamed). They could avoid just about anything autonomously.

To run a fully-autonomous robot and run it well, you need to combine the avoidance code of 1024's 2008 robot with the automation of 33 and 111, along with the decision-making of a human and the drive code of your robot design. If you can't do that decision-making, settle for automation. Make it so that your driver or operator says, I need X at point Y, and the robot does it quickly and smoothly.

Very few robots could run fully autonomously these days. The last game that was practical was 2003: Drive up the ramp and lock down. 111 was one of the World Champions. This was also the first time automode came into play. 2002 would be even easier--drive straight, grab goal, drive straight, park. Imagine if 71 had run autonomously that year: Drivers hit "go" and watch the robot win the match every time (as opposed to drivers drive the robot out, shift drivetrains, and win the match).

Listen to JVN. He's been on three good teams and learned from many more. If he says that he does not want to be paired with you, without even hearing about your robot, you might want to listen to why.

On the same note, I'd want to pair with 33, 111, 71, or 148 any day, no matter the game and no matter their robot. There's a very good reason why, or several, and some of them are above.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

Reply With Quote
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-12-2010, 11:43
theprgramerdude theprgramerdude is offline
WPI Freshman
AKA: Alex
FRC #2503 (Warrior Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Brainerd, Minnesota
Posts: 347
theprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud of
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
Did his entire post go completely over your head? Seriously?

It's your duty in FRC to your teammates and alliance partners to put the most competitive robot possible on the field. A fully autonomous robot (assuming you do it, as literally hundreds of posts about the difficulties of such a system have again gone completely over your head) will in no way be better than a teleoperated robot with only 6 weeks of work.

Though honestly, you're lacking something far more important to your alliance partners than a good robot: good listening skills. Though, hey, everyone else in the world is your guinea pig anyway, you won't need to coordinate with them.
Wrong sir. Very wrong. There is absolutely no duty whatsoever to field the best competitive robot a team can, absolutely not. It is your opinion that putting out a good tele-operated robot would be better than an autonomous one to work with, but that is just YOUR OPINION. The fact that others may share you opinion does not mean that it is going to be a fact, as it's still YOUR OPINION.

Going back to the FIRST acronym, For INSPIRATION and Recognition of SCIENCE and Technology, a working, functioning autonomous robot is hands-down the best way, IMO, to get people to be inspired by the competition. Interfacing with a human operator is a fine thing and all, but forcing a robot to run on it's own, and run well, is pure science and pure inspiration. People will respect that better than any winning robot that can do some things neatly and win, because FIRST and the FRC isn't about winning.

If he can convince his team that this course would suit them well, and they feel like it's in their most inspirational interests to do so, they should. It's why they are building a robot, after all.
__________________
Attending: MN Duluth Regional
Reply With Quote
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-12-2010, 13:03
BrendanB BrendanB is offline
Registered User
AKA: Brendan Browne
FRC #1058 (PVC Pirates)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Londonderry, NH
Posts: 3,100
BrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
I take that as a challenge: see you at the regionals. I will do in the best of my abilities to program a very competitive, fully autonomous robot.
Nice, good luck with that, but I would recommend you don't discard the advice given by some highly respected FRC members. From a programming perspective, that would be awesome; however, from a strategist/scout I would never pick your team in eliminations. Looking back, our team with some more controls and sensors could have probably programmed our 2008 speed racer to run laps autonomously.*** Would that have been cool, yes. Would it have been the most effective strategy, no. Why? Because when we did compete with it during the off-season we used that lap bot to not only run laps, but our driver would play defense at the same time such as knocking balls away/out of grabbers and stuff like that making it a highly obnoxious opponent. I was behind the glass during a few of those matches and found the on the fly choices genius.

Another note, how many FRC robots have successfully completed their autonomous program repeated in the exact same way every match? Along the same idea, how many robots have done the exact same things in each and every match? FLL robots compete on tables with no other robot interaction and most of them cannot pull off 400 points consistently every round all the time.

I am not doubting your programming skills, it is A match strategy, but it isn't the ONLY of most EFFECTIVE strategy. Consider the amount of time it would take to program/test/debug all of that code in 2 minute matches. I would rather take all that time to train drivers how to play the game and react to different strategies.

1519 has done the usual driver for the chassis and moving the robot, operator for the manipulators, coach for direction, and human player to do the human player things. In 2009 we gave the control of picking up balls to our driver instead of our operator too ease communication between the two.

Merry Christmas!!

***http://www.mechanicalmayhem.org/teamvideos.asp
__________________
1519 Mechanical M.A.Y.H.E.M. 2008 - 2010
3467 Windham Windup 2011 - 2015
1058 PVC Pirates 2016 - xxxx
Reply With Quote
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-12-2010, 13:18
davidthefat davidthefat is offline
Alumni
AKA: David Yoon
FRC #0589 (Falkons)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: California
Posts: 792
davidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud of
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Thanks to all of you that responded to my post, but now lets get back to the topic:

I suggest that you have the maximum number of persons allowed at the box at all times. You never know, what if the driver cramps up his forearm an cannot properly drive? Somebody has to come in and replace him. Ok far-fetched example, but I am exemplifying something. Always come prepared. You would never go to the regional without spare parts, tools and a computer to program the robot with. Why step onto the ring without a backup? Ben Franklin once said that failing to prepare is preparing to fail. You never know when your driver passes out during the match due to dehydration or his arms cramp up. Always have depth in your rosters.
__________________
Do not say what can or cannot be done, but, instead, say what must be done for the task at hand must be accomplished.
Reply With Quote
  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-12-2010, 14:39
JaneYoung JaneYoung is offline
Onward through the fog.
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Austin, TX USA
Posts: 5,996
JaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond reputeJaneYoung has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by theprgramerdude View Post
... because FIRST and the FRC isn't about winning.
I was right with you until we got to this part. There are lots of threads in CD that discuss this part and in those threads are a lot of opinions and a lot of opinions expressed using wisdom. If it were not about winning, it would not be called a competition - but FRC is much more than winning a competition and therein lies the magic of infinite possibilities. Some include how a team wins which could touch into some of our higher ideals such as playing with integrity and honor. Some can include the honor of the win or the loss, recognizing the importance of going the distance and never giving up. Some include the teamwork developed between students and their mentors, pushing us into areas of innovation, creative problem-solving, and hands-on applications. Some can include the doors that open to educational and careers opportunities that would otherwise not make themselves available or remain undiscovered. Sometimes, there is nothing sadder than a dormant or undiscovered opportunity when it is actually right at our fingertips and we aren't paying attention.

It is about winning and what that can mean.

Jane
__________________
Excellence is contagious. ~ Andy Baker, President, AndyMark, Inc. and Woodie Flowers Award 2003

Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved.
~ Helen Keller
(1880-1968)

Last edited by JaneYoung : 26-12-2010 at 09:06.
Reply With Quote
  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-12-2010, 15:00
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,112
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
It's your duty in FRC to your teammates and alliance partners to put the most competitive robot possible on the field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theprgramerdude View Post
Wrong sir. Very wrong. There is absolutely no duty whatsoever to field the best competitive robot a team can, absolutely not. It is your opinion that putting out a good tele-operated robot would be better than an autonomous one to work with, but that is just YOUR OPINION. The fact that others may share you opinion does not mean that it is going to be a fact, as it's still YOUR OPINION.

Going back to the FIRST acronym, For INSPIRATION and Recognition of SCIENCE and Technology, a working, functioning autonomous robot is hands-down the best way, IMO, to get people to be inspired by the competition.
Pay close attention to the other two letters you ignored there. We're not just talking FIRST. We're talking the FIRST Robotics Competition. If you are going for "impressive" at the expense of "competitive", it's my opinion that you're being unreasonably selfish.

That's even before considering the increasingly obvious fact that the programmer in question (and his entire team, for that matter) has more than a few other things to work on before getting to the point where a fully autonomous robot is anything more than a fantasy.
Reply With Quote
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-12-2010, 21:28
thefro526's Avatar
thefro526 thefro526 is offline
Mentor for Hire.
AKA: Dustin Benedict
no team (EWCP, MAR, FRC 708)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,599
thefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond reputethefro526 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to thefro526 Send a message via MSN to thefro526
Re: Drive Team Configuration

816 has always followed the following configuration for as long as I've been involved and from what I've heard since our inception.

Driver - Responsible for the movement of the robot and getting the robot to where it needs to be. Usually we've tried to keep the driver's controls to a minimum so there is less to worry about, but we have played on giving the driver some control over other machine functions (Ramps in 2007, Dumper override in 2009 which was never used.)

Operator - Responsible for robot manipulators. Pretty straight forward, anything that's not in the drive-train is usually controlled my the operator.

Human Player - Varies with the game, and usually is the person most likely to change from year to year depending on the role. Usually this person is relatively athletic should the game call for it, otherwise this role is assigned to one of the more dedicated members that wasn't able to cut it as Operator or Driver.

Coach - This is the role I've somehow fallen into since my graduation from HS, and I take responsibility for pre-match strategy, Analyzing Scouting Info (This varies from year to year, depending on what human resources are available) and watching the match while it is in progress. I try to keep my driveteam as well informed as possible both before and during the match so that they have less to worry about.

We also have a sort of an Assistant Coach on 816, Zach. He was our Coach in 2009 and a really close friend of mine so he usually travels with the team to help with strategy, scouting, keeping me sane, match analysis, comic relief and a handful of other things. If you don't have a Zach on your team, I think you should find one.

I place a large emphasis on drive team cohesiveness (I guess that's the appropriate term) and how well the personalities mesh with each other. I've worked with a lot of different drive team configurations in my 5-seasons with FIRST and I've found that this is often over looked. In many years we'd often pick the person that was best for a single job but often conflicting personalities would hinder the drive team from reaching it's full potential. Just something to think about.

We also like to keep at least one or two back ups for each position, but we never cycle through drive teams. (anymore) Consistency is often one of the most important things when Alliance Selections come around, so you should keep this in mind. Nothing's worse that picking a team and having them switch drivers or coaches during a match - it really messes up the flow of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post

It's your duty in FRC to your teammates and alliance partners to put the most competitive robot possible on the field.
And statements like this are why I love you, Chris.

I really might have to borrow this one.
__________________
-Dustin Benedict
2005-2012 - Student & Mentor FRC 816
2012-2014 - Technical Mentor, 2014 Drive Coach FRC 341
Current - Mentor FRC 2729, FRC 708
Reply With Quote
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-12-2010, 21:14
sithmonkey13's Avatar
sithmonkey13 sithmonkey13 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Nathan
FRC #1178 (DURT)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 70
sithmonkey13 is a name known to allsithmonkey13 is a name known to allsithmonkey13 is a name known to allsithmonkey13 is a name known to allsithmonkey13 is a name known to allsithmonkey13 is a name known to all
Re: Drive Team Configuration

In 2010 for 1178 we had:
Driver: Drove the robot, could activate the kicker, or hold down a button to deactivate it

Weapons Operator: (Team Name, makes it sound really cool) Could kick, deactivate kicker, change kick setting and activate the winch on the robot.

Coach: Talked strategy with the other teams before the match, keep track of the score and penalties, help the human players communicate (if the person on the trident wasn't paying attention) and sometimes would tell us what our alliance partners would do

Human player: Pulled the balls out of the corral and handed them to the person with the trident

We kept the same four people for the whole St. Louis Regional, and aside from robot problems, it worked fairly well. I cannot tell you about 2009 but in 2008 the driver was given more control of other functions as the Weapons Operator had a complex task.
__________________
Note: You cannot tell the difference between "OK Go" and "OK No" when there 2 walls between you and the robot. At that point, the only thing between injury and safety for the mechanical guys is their ninja skills.
Reply With Quote
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-12-2010, 14:16
Mike Soukup's Avatar
Mike Soukup Mike Soukup is offline
Software guy
FRC #0111 (Wildstang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 797
Mike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond reputeMike Soukup has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
Thanks to all of you that responded to my post, but now lets get back to the topic:

<snip of ridiculous suppositions>
That's how you try to get back on topic, with an asinine example? You seriously need to do a lot more listening to people who are trying to help and a lot less talking and bragging. But I doubt you'll listen to me either. You seem to have a "Peanuts" filter in your brain; adults try to give you great advice, but all you hear is "Wah wah wah wah wah wah."
Reply With Quote
  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-12-2010, 15:34
Tom Ore Tom Ore is offline
Registered User
FRC #0525 (Swartdogs)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
Posts: 460
Tom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond reputeTom Ore has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Soukup View Post
...a "Peanuts" filter in your brain...
That's funny...
Reply With Quote
  #45   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-12-2010, 16:05
Bomberofdoom's Avatar
Bomberofdoom Bomberofdoom is offline
Biggest FIRST addict in Israel
AKA: Nir Levanon
FRC #2230 (Zcharia's Angels)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Israel
Posts: 471
Bomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond reputeBomberofdoom has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Bomberofdoom
Re: Drive Team Configuration

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidthefat View Post
Im planning on so that we only need to send a human player and a driver. Yes I am confident that I can make it fully autonomous; the driver is there to manually override the robot if it goes haywire.
Reaaallly sorry for continuing the OT here and sorry for the long post.

Hey David,

I believe I can safely say that I know where you're coming from with your confidence in achieving a fully autonomous robot, and like some of the CD programmers here, I wish you the best of luck in achieving that.

I've read several of your posts in this previous year and although I haven't seen any of your works personally, you've given me the impression of a very talented person, aside of being a talented programmer. I also assume that you are more experienced in this field, more than in mechanics.
As such a talented and experienced programmer, I'm quite sure you realize that by looking at previous years games and the diversity in the challenges and tasks in most of them, especially from every following year, you can see that it is very difficult to predetermine the challenges your TEAM'S robot will have to go up against. You may predict and prepare, and sometimes that works, but as for automation that is nearly impossible. There are a lot of FRC rules, field parameters and game element parameters and robot parameters and much more that you must take into consideration when forming up your TEAM'S strategy of the autonomous robot. But wait! Now you might know the rules, but you need to define GAME STRATEGY of your TEAM'S robot. Now that should put in some more considerations. Can you define all of the possibilities of different types of strategy-based tactics? Tons! Assuming you can define the solutions and implement them into the robot while in the competitions is very unlikely.

Speaking of parameters, somewhere deep in that huge paragraph i just worte ( ), Can you really trust your TEAM'S robot's sensors and their accuracy? What if changes are made to the robot's physical model?

Out of experience (as myself and as observing the work of another talented programmer I personally know), you may have the whole game plan for programming and operating the fully autonomous robot, but there's a huge consideration you need to take in mind.

What if the rest of your TEAM cannot build the robot your TEAM's strategy is based on? What if certain MECHANIC components or ideas just don't work? A lot of time (and that is part of merely 6 WEEKS), and that also means sensor and manipulator calibration time, testing time and correction time (which includes going over the last two again), will be lost if that happens, and, sadly, as the young engineers and fragile humans we are, it happens to us a lot; And as a programmer, it's a real shame to think that you might have had the "ultimate code to rule them all!"...when even in practice you couldn't bring it out in the final product, the TEAM's robot.
I have already experienced in the past 4 years the disappointment when you realize you've written a great code for your robot's mechanical component, but it isn't built until the very last days, and sometimes is just scratched off the final product, and all that code has gone for the season.

Your autonomous robot relies HEAVILY on the REST OF YOUR TEAM to build the other parts of your robot successfully, that is the electrical and mechanical parts. If they can't achieve even the minimum required out of an FRC robot, your code is just virtual for the season, which is the most important period - not the off-season.
Virtual is beautiful and awesome, but reality is much more awesome, more practical and more accepted within the ranks of engineers and scientists in the field future science and engineering.

That was more of a personal statement for you David, and now to the point:

Unless you have 100%, or even 95% assurance you can achieve your goal with all it's prior requirements to achieve it, then go for it. But if you cannot assure it, it's best to lower your goals until you reach that 95-100% area of insurance of success.
Like others said, helping out your drivers, who will need to manually drive the robot in case of a "fully-autonomous emergency", by giving them easier and smoother controls, faster response, simpler manual control methods and more, which are much more achievable and mostly likely to guarantee your TEAM success when driving the robot. Like I've said, you're probably a very talented programmer and can probably think of very creative and useful ways to help out your TEAM in driving the robot, and hey!, maybe even when building it, say for mechanical tests!

...Though on the other hand you do have 8 programmers on your team, which is already too much... :S

Non-the-less, best of luck to you and your team in this year's season, and I hope to hear great stories from your side.
__________________
TEAM 2230 ZECHARIA'S ANGELS

2009 Microsoft Israel FRC Regional Winners!
2009 Microsoft Israel FRC Regional Chairman's Award Winners!!!
---------------------------------
2008 Microsoft Israel FRC Regional semi-finalist.
2008 Microsoft Israel FRC Regional Delphi's "Driving Tommorow's Technology" Award winner.
2008 Robot Driver
---------------------------------
2007 GM/Technion Israel FRC Regional semi-Finalist.
2007 GM/Technion Israel FRC Regional Xerox Creativity Award winner.
2007 Robot Driver.

Last edited by Bomberofdoom : 27-12-2010 at 16:09.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Team 234 - Belt / Chain Drive and Team Continuity Planning Chris Fultz Championship Event 0 14-04-2009 08:03
pic: Team 1114 Drive team in the finals Dan 1038 Extra Discussion 30 24-03-2008 22:08
Drive Configuration Poll TJ4nier Technical Discussion 1 09-01-2008 23:17
pic: Team 1178 Robot - Starting Configuration Jake M Extra Discussion 1 01-03-2007 22:34


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:46.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi