Possible new product Survey

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

How does software apply here?

Planning, and strategy, like this software: http://www.teamonthree.com/playbooks...ook-maker.aspx

I had success using similar software and printing it out for all my team mates.

It can be modified for every year instead of wasting physical resources, only man time and a few bytes are used. Also the strategies and plans can be saved for later use.

I just think that is a lot more economical and better on general.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Planning, and strategy, like this software: http://www.teamonthree.com/playbooks...ook-maker.aspx

I had success using similar software and printing it out for all my team mates.

I suspect you are misunderstanding the goal here. We're talking about meeting with one's alliance partners before a given match in order to compare teams' strengths and abilities against those of the opposing alliance, and choose a strategic plan for that particular match. Preprinted play cards would rarely, if ever, correspond to the specific mix of robots playing.

It can be modified for every year instead of wasting physical resources, only man time and a few bytes are used.

It seems to me that a portable computer represents significantly more "physical resources" than a whiteboard, a laminated clipboard, or a pad of paper, even if a new whiteboard and set of dry-erase markers is used each season. A used match strategy board even makes a good end-of-year memento for the drive coach, if you consider such trinkets a worthwhile part of the team experience.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I suspect you are misunderstanding the goal here. We're talking about meeting with one's alliance partners before a given match in order to compare teams' strengths and abilities against those of the opposing alliance, and choose a strategic plan for that particular match. Preprinted play cards would rarely, if ever, correspond to the specific mix of robots playing.



It seems to me that a portable computer represents significantly more "physical resources" than a whiteboard, a laminated clipboard, or a pad of paper, even if a new whiteboard and set of dry-erase markers is used each season. A used match strategy board even makes a good end-of-year memento for the drive coach, if you consider such trinkets a worthwhile part of the team experience.

Oh I assumed due to the very low requirements for running such software that the classmate would have been sufficient to use. My team never did such planning, just talked it over with the alliance. My coach once told us that its not about the X's and O's but Bills and Joes. The coach can make all the best plays and the best strategies, but its really up to the players, driver for this situation, to pull it off. I don't know about you, but even with planning, everything goes up in the air once you actually start. Its so unpredictable during the game.

I mean, but if its boards that float your boat, go for it. I guess I am just the new generation that sees the boards as "old school" (Take no offense, like 20 years from now, kids will be laughing at our super computers)

[Chris is me]

I guess you could do it with an iPad / Classmate, but a lot of the stuff I use a strategy board for is for non-playbook strategies - drawing arrows between bots, scribbling out autonomous modes, et cetera. It would require a much higher investment than a marker and a handful of magnets to make software do what's being sought here.

[JesseK]

For digital devices, a 'strategy book' is very straightforward. A simple graphic of the field with some software paint brushes would suffice to create strategies. One such program already comes with Windows, and in Win7 it's pretty darn nice to use with a touch surface. Saving the picture off is the hardest part (mostly because MS's operating system doesn't come with a default theme for larger buttons to be used by fingers...). I do this kind of thing all of the time for class with my Lenovo touch netbook.

Since the electronic device wouldn't be needed all of the time, it could stay in the pits on the charger. Yet I do agree that it's a $500 investment for something that's more of a toy than anything in regards to FRC; perhaps it's best to use this method only if someone already owns it and is willing to lend it.

Personally, given the choice I'd still rather have a 'board' and dry-erase; I have a phone with a camera and a real digital camera to 'save' the strategy off.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by JesseK

... A simple graphic of the field with some software paint brushes would suffice to create strategies. ....

I tend to agree.

If someone wants to go the computerized route, the 5th Gear Simulator has had a "Show me a picture of the field" option for the last couple of years (it's not very popular; but we might take a little time to keep it alive again this season).

The 5th Gear option can be used by running 5th Gear during the tournament or by saving a screen shot ahead of time and using something like MS Paint or PowerPoint to sketch on top of it.

My preference was/is printing one of the field illustrations from FIRST (from the rules) on 11x17 and/or 8.5x11 paper and taking a stack of them, plus a clipboard, to the tournament.

However, an inexpensive clipboard might help you avoid looking like a dork when you drop the stack of papers as you try to juggle several hand-held items walking around the tournament or in a crowded pit area.

Blake

Blake

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JesseK

A simple graphic of the field with some software paint brushes would suffice to create strategies.

And a several hundred dollar touchscreen computer. I'd rather use a $15 whiteboard (which unlike paper is eraseable!)

[kgzak]

we laminate a scale drawing of the field and attach it to an old a cookie sheet. We use scaled magnets to simulate max size of robots and it works out amazingly. we can draw on it with dry erase markers. Our team loves it.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

I don't know about you, but even with planning, everything goes up in the air once you actually start.

It doesn't have to. We develop a strategy that our alliance mates agree to - or they develop one we agree to - and we work the strategy as hard as we can. That got us an impressive record last year.

Originally Posted by thefro526

A clipboard is great because it takes up minimal room, can be tossed on a cart, in a backpack, or just carried around and is pretty forgiving if you drop it, step on it, throw it, or attempt to use it for some other purpose other than a clipboard...

And other uses...

But they take forever to boot up!

[Teched3]

just finished your survey, and hope it was helpful. because of our scouting other teams' capabilities, general strategy is usually discussed with partners well before we get into the que line. because of the fluid nature of the game once the match begins, it's up to the coaches to decide on changes. those decisions are most critical and ultimately can determine the outcome of a match. Strategy " boards" can go a long way in preparing for these changes.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

And a several hundred dollar touchscreen computer. I'd rather use a $15 whiteboard (which unlike paper is eraseable!)

"Eraseable" is both a blessing and a curse. What I draw on the paper stays put when I tuck it under my arm or into a manilla folder or fold it in half.

There are at least two kinds of people in the world...

Blake

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I guess you could do it with an iPad / Classmate, but a lot of the stuff I use a strategy board for is for non-playbook strategies - drawing arrows between bots, scribbling out autonomous modes, et cetera. It would require a much higher investment than a marker and a handful of magnets to make software do what's being sought here.

I'm with Chris on this one.

While a software option would be cool, it also means that you'd need some sort of touch screen device like a tablet PC, iPad, etc... That device would also need to be charged, needs time to setup, would be relatively fragile (in comparison to a clipboard) and is also just one more thing to have to keep an eye on.

A clipboard is great because it takes up minimal room, can be tossed on a cart, in a backpack, or just carried around and is pretty forgiving if you drop it, step on it, throw it, or attempt to use it for some other purpose other than a clipboard...

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Oh I assumed due to the very low requirements for running such software that the classmate would have been sufficient to use.

That's likely a valid assumption, but I think there are other assumptions you're making that aren't nearly as good. When logged in as the Driver user, it doen't easily have the option of running arbitrary programs. The keyboard and trackpad are simply unsuited to such on-the-go use. Most importantly, though, the Classmate is needed for running the robot. It can't be taken from that task during strategy planning.

My team never did such planning, just talked it over with the alliance. My coach once told us that its not about the X's and O's but Bills and Joes. The coach can make all the best plays and the best strategies, but its really up to the players, driver for this situation, to pull it off.

I suggest that you take the opportunity to watch some of the "powerhouse" teams in action before their matches at the next competition you attend. Deciding on a strategic plan for each specific match is an important part of being an effective alliance. If you leave it up to the drivers to decide what to do, there won't be anywhere near the coordinated action necessary to play well against an alliance that does have an overall plan.

I don't know about you, but even with planning, everything goes up in the air once you actually start. Its so unpredictable during the game.

That's why it makes sense to establish strategic roles for each robot in advance. That way the drivers have a clear task to work on even in the middle of what seems like total chaos.

I mean, but if its boards that float your boat, go for it. I guess I am just the new generation that sees the boards as "old school" (Take no offense, like 20 years from now, kids will be laughing at our super computers)

If you want to spend your limited programming resources to reproduce on a computer what can easily be done better with a power-independent, larger, lighter, and cheaper whiteboard, that's up to you, but...

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I guess you could do it with an iPad / Classmate, but a lot of the stuff I use a strategy board for is for non-playbook strategies - drawing arrows between bots, scribbling out autonomous modes, et cetera. It would require a much higher investment than a marker and a handful of magnets to make software do what's being sought here.

...Yeah, what he said.

[Duke461]

That's a great idea, Adam! Hope it works out for you!
The Software idea seems a bit superfluous by the way.

[arob9119]

I just took the survey.
That is a really great idea! I know my team would use one of those every meeting and almost all the time during the competition.