A Corrupt FIRST?

[keehun]

The posts' title and accusations in the original post is over the edge, but I still think this post can be turned around in to fruitful discussion.

Glancing through (read: scan through, not a in-depth reading) the audited report, it feels just like a tax return form. Just a lot of numbers and a lot of room for things to "hide" under.

For instance the operating cost of FRC in 2009 was $25,259,844. The revenue from "Program Registration Fees" was $15,535,666. "Contributions and Grants" were $15,900,906. The surplus at the bottom of that table was $506,264, which is a WHOLE lot less than 2010's figure.

Those seem like valid numbers, and then I read on page 8 "Unrestricted Contributions recorded as program expenses" which for FRC in 2010 was nearing $4 million. That could be anything. Lobbying, bribing, corrupting. (sarcasm, please)

I'm not on the same boat as the original poster as to say that the way FIRST uses money is in any way sketchy, but I think we could allow for some imagination and "creativity" (non-slander and non-libel!) and use it as an opportunity for discussion. FIRST does handle a lot of money.

I know that they have tried to help the teams out every year, by lowering the registration fees by a $1000 for example from the past. I don't really think FIRST is in any way corrupt. I also have no basis of reason to believe or even imagine so.

But this discussion is interesting! Like those price breakdowns lists of iPods/Wiis/etc they have online, maybe we could go through the KOP and price how much FIRST pays/(gets donations) for them and investigate?

Whatever it is, I guess the most important thing is to keep it all straight in facts and keept it free of libel.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by the man

The corruption was a question not an accusation. And I am not a lawyer nor do I care much what one would think.

It is possible to ask a question in such a way that it is an accusation rather than a question. This can be done in a number of ways, including language that can easily make the blood boil (i.e., "outrageous").

As for not caring much what a lawyer would think, let's assume for a moment that FIRST saw this thread. Let's also assume that they took it as an accusation, more specifically, a false and damaging accusation. Let's also assume that they don't just go after you, but they decide (in spite of your disclaimer) that the team thinks the same way, and name them as well in any lawsuit. What's a slander/libel lawsuit award run these days, $50K easily? Plus legal fees? That's why you'd want to care what a lawyer would think.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by the man

This in now way reflect on my team. These are my opinions and mine alone.
I have begun to notice some corruption in the FIRST organization.

How does this post and the title of this thread not reflect on your team, Jacob? You are reflecting on your team. What do you think a team is? Is a team something that you step away from or push aside anytime you choose to voice an opinion? If that is your idea of what a team is, you might want to spend some time thinking about and evaluating that mindset. You might also consider asking your mentors to help you out with questions like this before you state your opinions in Chief Delphi that draw a response from Dave Lavery in the manner in which you have done. Mentors are excellent resources and usually have a bigger picture/understanding of FIRST or can find knowledgeable people who do.

Jane

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by the man

Ya and to go to that Michigan state champion ship you have to pay another $4000, and then first national competiton another $5000. Thats over $14,000 when you include the cost of the robot and gas. food, and hotels. A lot to ask a team to fundraise.

I would like to know where you got those figures from?

It seems as if you are being quite critical of the Michigan system for money. While it does have it's ups and downs, I can tell you as an outside team, your getting to go to 2 districts, while I as a NE Team am only going to 1 regional for what I believe is the same prices (I apologize if this statement is wrong in advance).

I'm not putting you down for the point your trying to make, everyone is entitled to there own opinion and free speech, and if you want to say FIRST is corrupt that is your own right. But please try to back it up with actual facts at least. I don't think I would have as big of a problem with this argument as I do right now if both sides were using actual cold hard facts and good numbers/statistics.

My $0.02

[the man]

In that case i would have to destroy first. If it comes to that I am sorry to those, my self included, who have enjoyed first.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by the man

In that case i would have to destroy first. If it comes to that I am sorry to those, my self included, who have enjoyed first.

You're not going to get very far unless you work on improving your communication skills, punctuation, and spelling errors.

Jane

[the man]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

How does this post and the title of this thread not reflect on your team, Jacob? You are reflecting on your team. What do you think a team is? Is a team something that you step away from or push aside anytime you choose to voice an opinion? If that is your idea of what a team is, you might want to spend some time thinking about and evaluating that mindset. You might also consider asking your mentors to help you out with questions like this before you state your opinions in Chief Delphi that draw a response from Dave Lavery in the manner in which you have done. Mentors are excellent resources and usually have a bigger picture/understanding of FIRST or can find knowledgeable people who do.

Jane

You shold know that i no longer have mentors due to the unavalability of money to our past frc program. Are you sugesting that I am not entitled to my opinion? Dose every idea i have belong or represent my team? If so then we have all done things, thought thoughts, and other wise disrespected our teams.

[the man]

Originally Posted by dag0620

I would like to know where you got those figures from?

It seems as if you are being quite critical of the Michigan system for money. While it does have it's ups and downs, I can tell you as an outside team, your getting to go to 2 districts, while I as a NE Team am only going to 1 regional for what I believe is the same prices (I apologize if this statement is wrong in advance).

I'm not putting you down for the point your trying to make, everyone is entitled to there own opinion and free speech, and if you want to say FIRST is corrupt that is your own right. But please try to back it up with actual facts at least. I don't think I would have as big of a problem with this argument as I do right now if both sides were using actual cold hard facts and good numbers/statistics.

My $0.02

How much dose it cost you to attend an not state event?

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by the man

Dose every idea i have ... represent my team?

YES.

By affiliating yourself with a team, you are representing them at all times, as you are a member and part of that team. You can't quit your team to say something, then join back on it. The words are tied to you, and you're tying yourself to your team.

If you have ideas you don't want to be affiliated with your team, either don't say them or don't be on that team. You are a constant representative of your team.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by the man

... Any thoughts? ...

Sure - I have a blunt thought:

I have better things to do with my time than engage in an online debate with a trolling nincompoop.

Blake

[EricH]

With regards to the KOP questions asked, there are two ways to answer.

The first is, why do they choose to give us a pile of parts that otherwise we'd have to track down for ourselves, thereby making their lives harder and ours easier?

The second is, so that teams who do use substantial amounts of the KOP can get those parts easily, rather than spending lots of time to look around for money or parts.

And I know that a lot of teams use a lot of parts from the KOP, whether they show up in competition or not. 330 tends to build practice robots with kit frame for use as testbeds, and I know we aren't the only ones. Those air storage cylinders are KOP, and quite useful.

The KOP is not required to be used on the competition robot; rather, it is allowed to be used to the extent that a team wishes to use it. (Think about it--motors must be from the KOP, but you don't have to use any particular motor. The cRIO and whatever makes it work electrically is about the only required part.)

[czeke]

Plus, keep in mind, that regionals aren't cheap. Not only is there a rental fee, to the venue, for the event, but you also have to hire a full staff of support personnel ( ushers, vendors, janitorial, etc. ) which more than likely is receiving union wages. Plus you have the cost of any advertising.

[the man]

Originally Posted by gblake

Sure - I have a blunt thought:

I have better things to do with my time than engage in an online debate with a trolling nincompoop.

Blake

Wow well developed argument thanks for your support...

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by the man

How much dose it cost you to attend an not state event?

$5k, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, you mention earlier that going to districts, state champs, and championships would cost you 14k. Remember that no one is asking you to raise 14k. To participate in FRC, you need 5k. That gets you a kit and a regional (or two district events). Any expenses past that are your team's choice. And if 5k is too much, FIRST offers a lower-cost robotics competition: FTC.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by the man

You shold know that i no longer have mentors due to the unavalability of money to our past frc program. Are you sugesting that I am not entitled to my opinion? Dose every idea i have belong or represent my team? If so then we have all done things, thought thoughts, and other wise disrespected our teams.

Jacob,

No, I don't know this. You will have to explain what has happened to your team.

Yes, I am suggesting that as a member of an FRC team and of the FIRST community, when posting in CD, I am very aware of how my posts will impact, affect, or reflect on my team and on the FIRST community. It is part of the bigger picture thinking, Jacob.

FRC is very expensive. Travel to distant competitions is very expensive. Building a sustainable team is difficult and takes much more work than building a robot that will compete for one FRC season. It's not glamorous but it is what will keep the team together and able to compete. If FRC is too expensive due to finances, there are other robotics programs that are available to compete in. If a team is struggling financially and/or with sustainability issues, that does not make FIRST corrupt - it just makes it more difficult to compete in.

Jane