FIRST's Bag and Tag policies...

[Tsom467]

Hello,

I'm really beginning to wonder what FIRST is thinking. In talking to
the other mentors on our team, who have also been talking to the
organizers of a regional event, we're really trying to figure out
FIRST's rationale regarding their bag-and-tag policies.

We're attending two events – WPI Regional and Toronto Regional. WPI is
literally 15 minutes up the road from the school.. but is not a
bag-and-tag event. Most of the teams attending there are within easy
driving distance. Case in point, Team 190 / WPI, Mass Academy, who is
attending the WPI regional has to pack their robot, ship it to
drayage, have the robot delivered BACK to WPI for the regional. Then
their next regional is a bag-and-tag and since WPI is not, they now
have to pack and SHIP the robot to BACK to their classroom, literally
across the street! The regional organizers have asked FIRST several
times to be a bag-and-tag event and were told NO. Completely makes no
sense. It would make so much more sense to at least make an event
"optionally" bag-and-tag, so team can choose what to do. We also heard
the Brazil team, whose first event is the bag-and-tag Boston event (I
believe) have to bring their robot with them, instead of shipping it.
Who knows what kind of crazy arrangements they're going to have to
make!

We also now have to ship our robot to drayage, have it delivered to
WPI for our regional, then our second regional is bag-and-tag in
Toronto, so we have to ship it back to our school, then take it with
us on the bus to Toronto. Not to mention making sure we can even fit
it on the bus! We have an open question to FIRST also about customs..
what if customs asks to see what we have all packed up? Do we get a
"free" un-bagging? We either do that, or we leave the robot at the
border. Not to slight any volunteer, but we can so see an official in
Toronto getting all uppity because we had to unbag our robot for
customs inspectors.

It's policies like this that really makes me question what's going on
in the FIRST organizers minds. With costs going up, scarcity of money
and sponsors, teams will stop participating. Not every team is a
"corporate" team with unlimited, or almost unlimited, funds.

I have a feeling that this'll fall on deaf ears, regarding FIRST, they'll do what they want even if it sometimes (most times?) makes little practical sense, but I had to voice my opinion.

Rant over…

[EricH]

I'll tell you part of what's going on. VENUE policies. In some venues, FIRST can't get clearance to have teams bring their robot in, no matter how close the teams are located.

Second, FIRST has volunteered to help teams make arrangements to ship to Bag-and-Tag events if necessary (i.e., the Brazil teams). What those arrangements are, I don't know, and as long as they work, I don't particularly care.

I don't know if you have asked FIRST about your customs question, but CD is not the official venue for that. You need to contact FIRST about that if you have not done so already, and if it's been a while since you did, you may wish to remind them. (Or just plan to have an unbag at the border...)

[Tsom467]

Originally Posted by EricH

I'll tell you part of what's going on. VENUE policies. In some venues, FIRST can't get clearance to have teams bring their robot in, no matter how close the teams are located.

Sorry, but that's not entirely true. When I was speaking of the WPI event, the organizers of the event asked FIRST if they could be Bag and Tag and FIRST told then NO. I can't speak of other events, but that is what happened with WPI.. the VENUE asked FIRST and FIRST flat out told then they could not.

[ATannahill]

The organizers and the venue are two different entities. The venue is owned by WPI and all of their rules apply.

The organizers are mostly volunteers that make sure the regional runs well.

[Tsom467]

Just to clarify, when I spoke of WPI's organizers and Venue I was speaking of the same people.

[EricH]

When I said venue, I wasn't referring to the regional committees/event organizers. I was referring to the physical site of the regional--and any associated unions, policies, and other similar "nuisances".

I've actually seen the crew of a regional site insist on taking the field out to the truck--parked at a bed-level loading dock--one case at a time with a forklift. It doesn't make sense, but you have to either live with it, or as in that case, someone with some authority needs to step up and make noise to allow for more efficient/effective loading.

At this point, I don't think anything will change. (Timing could also have been a factor.) But what you do is for next year, you make enough noise via official channels that "Regional X should be Bag-and Tag" that FIRST has to notice. At that point, next year's should be given the green light for that, if the venue approves.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

When I said venue, I wasn't referring to the regional committees/event organizers. I was referring to the physical site of the regional--and any associated unions, policies, and other similar "nuisances".

This doesn't apply to WPI - the regional venue on campus isn't bound by any of this. Battlecry happens in the exact same location without such hassles.

I am willing to bet the RPC knows more about their own venue than FIRST does - or you do.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

This doesn't apply to WPI - the regional venue on campus isn't bound by any of this. Battlecry happens in the exact same location without such hassles.

I am willing to bet the RPC knows more about their own venue than FIRST does - or you do.

Not knowing anything about venue policies, I took the broader approach, which can cover other venues about which the same complaint can be voiced. For instance, I don't know if WPI's venue has unions, policies, and that sort of thing--but I do know that L.A.'s venues have had unions, with rather strict (and some would say obnoxious) rules. One of those is where the incident I mentioned above took place.

Anything on FIRST's end is out of any of our control, other than to make noise about it. They do tend to listen, if it's made in the right way and manner.

[Bryan Herbst]

I do agree that it seems silly to not allow teams to remove their robots from events themselves if their next event is bag and tag.

However, I believe that one of the major reasons FIRST will not allow your regional to bag and tag is that bag and tag is still very young and FIRST is still trying it out. They do not want to simply convert all regionals to bag and tag before they are absolutely sure it will work and before they have worked out all the kinks.

Having two systems does create a bit of a hassle, but in the end I believe it will result in a solid system for next year, when I expect FIRST will roll out bag and tag to the rest of (or at least a majority of) the regionals.

[Valkyries_698]

If Customs opens your bag you can have them close it back up with tape with CUSTOMS written on it(similar to caution tape). at least thats what happened to a package I received from Germany.

[Tristan Lall]

Let me quickly address the issue with Canadian customs: basically, you've got a legal obligation to submit your possessions to search. So if they instruct you to open it, I would suggest you do so. (Nothing FIRST says can override what you're required to do under penalty of law.) Then, when the customs agent is satisfied, seal it again, with a new numbered zip tie.

Log both the opening and closing of the bag on your lockup form, and specify "Canada customs" as the reason. That's the critical step—but if you want to be meticulous about it, consider asking the customs agent for a receipt, and providing that to the robot inspector. (Another good practice is to carry a letter from your school explaining the purpose of the robot, and noting that the robot and all your tools will be used in Canada during the competition and promptly returned to the U.S.. This tells the customs agent that there are no importation duties due.)

Provided that the team properly attests that it followed all the rules (via appropriate signatures on the lockup form), having to open the bag for customs won't cause a problem at the events. (Yes, the manual should probably have explained this, but doesn't; if you're still concerned and need a statement from FIRST, feel free to ask the Q&A when it opens.)

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I agree with Tristan on this and suggest that in the event customs asks you to break the seal, ask if the agent will sign YOUR Bar and Tag document with the new seal already documented. If nothing else, it will provide an interesting object for the team.
A reminder to any team participating in one B&T and one traditional event. Please be sure to read, understand and implement all the rules involving robot handling and shipment. Make one person responsible for the documents so that they don't get lost.
TSOM, they are many reasons that come into play for the decisions that are made for each event that are not apparent. Don't let something little like the lack of a B&T event across the street keep you from enjoying the competition.

[Roger]

Originally Posted by Tsom467

We also heard the Brazil team, whose first event is the bag-and-tag Boston event (I believe) have to bring their robot with them, instead of shipping it.

According to this, Boston isn't a Bag & Tag; according to this, Brazil isn't coming here either. Maybe you're thinking of BAE Manchester NH instead?

But I didn't come here to say that. Before I checked the above I was thinking the Brazil team could ship the robot to me, as my office (and garage space) is directly across the street from BU's Agannis Arena where it's held, and they just have to roll it across Comm Ave. But it's a moot point now.

Regarding the OP: there are going to be some silly contradictions all over with this. My team has to lug our robot to Finger Lakes and back, then ship it to Boston (roughly 20 miles).

After Kickoff when the FIRST Q&A website opens is when to ask the questions. Boston is probably not B&T (I'm guessing) because of union rules, a small loading dock area, and/or a low height underground parking. Why WPI isn't, I don't know; maybe they saw how Battlecry did it they wanted a more smooth operation. It does get rather hectic in that driveway. Plus the chance of snow messing things up too?

[Jeff Pahl]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

A reminder to any team participating in one B&T and one traditional event. Please be sure to read, understand and implement all the rules involving robot handling and shipment. Make one person responsible for the documents so that they don't get lost.

I gave a short presentation about B&T at the MN Splash Seminar event in Dec, including some things to be aware of if you are attending one of each type of event. We have both traditional and B&T events here in MN this year so we have several teams attending both types. The presentation can be found here.

[quinxorin]

Michigan is so much simpler. We're entirely bag-and-tag (we actually started it a year earlier than everyone else) and we're basically closed off from the rest of the world, no other teams are allowed to compete in a Michigan competition anymore. Makes the whole process much simpler. Then again, whenever FIRST decides to change a policy (such as instituting Bag and Tag), they always do it in Michigan first, which has turned out badly on occasion.