Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

[ChristopherBuck]

Originally Posted by EricH

If you standardize minibot activation on the minibot, teams have to design for that. If you standardize a deployment that can accept any minibot, and have activation be automatic on the minibot, that's easier to do.

How about standardizing that all compliant hostbots will be able to provide a quick-detach DIO clip and a dead man switch for minibots to use for activation, as well as a 12"x12"x12" bay for the minibot for the duration of the match. At endgame, the Hostbots would then place minibots on the tower and provide an activation signal via the DIO line, and then (If connected) disconnect the DIO line or dead-man switch. Of course, the minibots would not have to use these activation methods, and could choose to activate themselves by detecting the presence of the pole. A standard such as this allows many different implementations of minibots and delivery systems to be compatible.

[JohnHorton]

As far as deployment goes, I sketched up a rough diagram of a deployment tray that can be slid out to the pole. It has a 2"x6" rectangular notch cut into a 12" square plate to put the minibot into position around the pole, as well as three 1/2" holes drilled into the plate (the front two 2" in from the front and 1" away from the notch to each side, the third 5" from the front and 1" to the left side of the notch) that can be used to align the minibot for deployment.

Low res image attached, and the high res scan is in the attached zip if you're curious.

[James Tonthat]

Here's my try at it. It's nothing too fancy, the manual (a pdf file in the zip) has the stipulations that should be taken when designed.

[darist]

James, I love where you are going with this, mostly because it is very simple but yet very flexible.

I love the velcro idea great because it will be very easy to make almost any minibot instantly compatible with this deployment mechanism, even for teams that never saw this thread, they can do it in 5min at the competition.

Another good thing is that it requires no communication between hostbot and minibot.

It allows for the hostbot to implement any kind of deployment mechanism they want, as long as somehow that tray gets pushed up against the post. So, one team may dream up a slide-out mechanism, another may have an arm that rotates out, or an arm that rotates from a vertical position to the position indicated by the drawing... etc

Then of course, the one thing I worry about with this design is (ironically) the velcro. The requirement is that the hostbot places the minibot on the post and then pulls away. The minibot will have to be designed to hold on to that post pretty hard (somebody who didn't read about this standard may not do that). Or, on the other hand, if the velcro doesn't hold on hard enough, the minibot can come flying on a collision during the match.

[EricH]

James and John pretty much nailed what I was thinking of with my platform suggestion. Then the only problem is getting it to either the base or the pole, but that should be team option.

W/R/T the DIO option, does the NXT even have that option? I was thinking use one of the two allowed light switches--use a servo on a light arm, positioned before the match, to flip the switch. Or you use the dead-man or pole-sensor; the dead-man indicates that the host says don't go yet (move servo or something, while the pole sensor says I have pole, climb faster.

[darist]

As I've been reading through the ideas posted, I realize that it may be important to consider an important question:

Who is most likely to benefit from such a standard?
I see two sets of teams that will benefit most from this:

- Rookie teams or teams that don't have a chance to build a minibot because they don't have time or easy access to an FTC team or FTC parts. Those teams can benefit by implementing a deployment mechanism that complies with the standard. Let's make the standard as simple and quick to implement as possible so teams that run out of time can still do it, even if it is during the practice day.

- Teams that design a cool minibot, or several minibots and want to share them with other teams in their alliance, or any other teams for coopertition points or just to be nice. When designing the minibot such teams may want to have maximum flexibility to make the shape of their minibot whatever they want, but will be able to use their minibots in other hostbots if their minibots are compatible with the standard.

The teams that make the really cool minibots can have their own custom (non -standard compliant) deployment mechanism in their hostbot, optimized for their minibot. But if they also design their minibot to be compatible, they will have the ability to have their minibot go in other hostbots.

With this in mind, maybe the standard should be just for the deployment mechanism not for the minibot (or really just the part of the deployment mechanism that holds the minibot). That is, let's define a standard minibot "holder thingy" (along the lines of James' suggestion above), and any team can design a compatible minibot.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I really like this idea though I am concerned as well about the Velcro not pulling away from the mnibot if the robot is too powerful.

What if we changed the design so the minibot had to pull away from the hostbot (by climbing the pole) instead of the hostbot pulling away form the minibot. In this way it is up to the minibot design to pull away from the deployment platform. The hostbot only retracts the deployment platform when the minibot has started climbing.

Also I would like to see a simple sample deployment mechanism built out of kit or easy to find parts for rookies teams to build or even to be built at a competition and added to a robot easily.

[EricH]

I could probably rig something up out of cardboard in a couple of hours as a prototype, but I'm kind of busy right now. Give me a couple of days and I'll see what I can do. If you can't find cheap cardboard quickly, you probably need to sleep for a few days.

[Grim Tuesday]

Why release something at the base of the pole when you can release it at 18 inches? IMO this should be built into the universal one.

[JohnHorton]

I think a simple scissor lift would suffice to lift the deployment platform up the the needed height (the 12in of the base or even more to the deployment line), and then drawer slides à la the kickoff video to roll it out to the tower would be something any team could do quickly and easily. The only hard part is dealing with minibots that need an external trigger to activate, instead of sensing the pole for themselves.

I also love the idea of projectile minibots, if GDC allows them. If they are allowed, maybe people would want to build modular launchers that fit onto the universal platform, and can be swapped and traded for other minibots.

This could get really cool. I forsee black market stands outside competitions peddling minibots, each touting their design.

[ZeroGAdam]

Now somebody. somewhere among the 10+ threads about mini-bots must have asked this, and I might of missed it, but here goes nothing...

Under <R92>, when it says Tetrix Components, are NXT Sensors of any kind considered to be a Tetrix Component? I've been disputing this since I read the rules regarding the permitted materials. Until the GDC Q&A is open, I figured I might as well ask the community.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Why release something at the base of the pole when you can release it at 18 inches? IMO this should be built into the universal one.

1) Who said anything about how high the platform would go?
2) 18" for the top of the minibot or for the platform? It might make a big difference...

As for who is going to benefit from a standard, it could be rookies who just need a little bit of a push, it could be teams with lots of spares, or it could be teams with a couple pounds and no minibot who slap one on and borrow a minibot and win a match or two. If there's an approximate standard, and teams build minibots for that approximate standard, then it's a lot easier to say, "Oh, let's add standard X to the robot and watch it work" than to say, "let's build a minibot deployer so that we can try and borrow someone's until ours works".

[obsidianjeff]

on the thought track of the Tetrix stuff, there has to be some sort of light sensor available to use on the minibots, so if you made something that could easily be put onto other robots, be contained in its own 1 foot cube, and be able to understand when the base of the poles are blinking and when they go to the solid color. couldn't it launch itself and find the pole provided your teammate drove relatively close to the base?

its kind of like making a FLL robot inside of a FRC bot...

[darist]

on the 18 inches, here are the related rules that I could find:

<G20> ROBOTS/HOSTBOTS may not contact their own TOWERS above the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: PENALTY for contact. TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.

<G22> HOSTBOTS may not contact their ALLIANCE’S MINIBOT once it has climbed above the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: TOWER is disabled

hmm... I need clarification on "above the deployment line".

is it any part of the minibot is above the deployment line, or
the entire minibot is above the deployment line?

[EricH]

Assume "any part" and be pleasantly surprised when it's "all" if that is the ruling.