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Unread 10-01-2011, 02:05
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Don't forget there are at least two other degrees of freedom here... the end effector could extend over the wide dimension of the bot (i.e. wide drive profile), and the bot frame can be smaller than 28 by 38...
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Unread 10-01-2011, 02:46
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Could the original drawing be modified to contain a typical game piece? Beginning to look very dicey for pickup off the carpet. also for extension to get to a peg. They are 14" (?) so effector would not be able to slide anything very far onto one? Five feet never seemed so cramped until now.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 07:17
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Elgin,

There really is no issue. I just wanted people to be aware of this rule and its design implications. I understand the rule's intent, but its side effect is a really brutal constraint that I want to make sure people understand.

The other point is the metric dimension does not agree with the English dimension. That needs to be fixed.

Paul
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Unread 10-01-2011, 07:26
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Exactly Paul,
The challenge is what it is and we will deal with it but the community needs to spread the word or there will be an inspection nightmare at regionals.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 08:43
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Inspection for compliance with the maximum playing configuration diameter should not be difficult -- a tape line on the floor 60" (or 84"?) from a vertical wall should be an adequate gauge, to determine if a robot COULD exceed the limit.

However, as in previous games where such a limit was part of the rules, it will be up to referees to determine when a robot DOES exceed the limit. (See <G40>.)
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Unread 10-01-2011, 08:52
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Inspection for compliance with the maximum playing configuration diameter should not be difficult -- a tape line on the floor 60" (or 84"?) from a vertical wall should be an adequate gauge, to determine if a robot COULD exceed the limit.

However, as in previous games where such a limit was part of the rules, it will be up to referees to determine when a robot DOES exceed the limit. (See <G40>.)
It's not that it will be difficult to inspect it's the fact that teams won't understand it and build a robot that won't work in the 60" rule.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 08:57
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
It's not that it will be difficult to inspect it's the fact that teams won't understand it and build a robot that won't work in the 60" rule.
You are right.

I hope the clarification comes soon.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 08:59
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
It's not that it will be difficult to inspect it's the fact that teams won't understand it and build a robot that won't work in the 60" rule.
Especially those that follow the metric rule.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:40
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock View Post
You mean like this??


Generously drawn up & provided by Arthur Dutra IV from FRC 228.
So... what's the issue?
There just went most arm designs! That is what the issue is. Another year, another funny rule.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:42
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

As was said, getting the word out about this is going to be important. I just sent an email to the mailing list of local teams, particularly because we have a few new teams and a number of existing teams with all new mentors. Whatever we can do to make sure people know the correct rule will be important.

As a side benefit, this nicely illustrates the need to carefully read the manual and to pay attention to FIRST email updates and the Q&A forum.

Paul, thanks for catching this! I never even paid attention to the metric dimensions (note to self, don't make that mistake again), and spent hours this weekend wracking my brain for ways to avoid violating the 60" rule. I told a couple of kids their (very creative) arm design was not going to work. Hopefully I can tell them later this week it is back on the table.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:46
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Inspection for compliance with the maximum playing configuration diameter should not be difficult -- a tape line on the floor 60" (or 84"?) from a vertical wall should be an adequate gauge, to determine if a robot COULD exceed the limit.

However, as in previous games where such a limit was part of the rules, it will be up to referees to determine when a robot DOES exceed the limit. (See <G40>.)
If memory serves me right, in 2008 the inspectors at some events, if not all, used a large hoop to determine that the robot stayed with in the correct operating volume. Considering how quickly the process went, I would imagine that FIRST would use the same system this year.

That being said, the clarification on this rule will be the deciding factor between or two prospective manipulator designs... I hope it comes soon.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:57
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Re: 60" Rule (Rule <R11>)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli View Post
All,

Ok so I was freaking out last night about this ridiculous restriction, but I noticed a discrepancy in the manual.

The Thunderchickens design in metric so we were looking at the metric dimensions in the table in <R11>. You English system designing teams have to stay within a 60" cylinder, but us metric designing teams get 213.4cm! For those of you that are reaching for your calculators, that is the equivalent of 84"!

In all seriousness, I will post a Q&A when it is up on Wednesday to ask which dimension is the real dimension. I am hoping for the 213.4cm.

Paul
AS we all are Paul. Guess the GDC may need to get new calculators.

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Unread 10-01-2011, 11:39
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Yet another implication of this rule is that many/most teams are going to need to retract whatever manipulator they have before DEPLOYING the MINIBOT, else they'll be in violation of the rule.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 11:54
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Here is a quick pdf of a power point slide (my favorite design tool ).

Assuming the rule is 60" and the metric equivalent:

For a "long" oriented robot any arm can only extend about 18" from the front of the robot (not simply 22 = 60 - 38, due to the "cylinder").

For a "wide" oriented robot, any arm can only extend about 23" (again, not simply 32" = 60-28).

Add the bumpers and it is even more of a challenge.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 60 inch cylinder.pdf (11.2 KB, 109 views)
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Unread 10-01-2011, 12:02
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Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fultz View Post
Add the bumpers and it is even more of a challenge.
Unlike previous years' cylinder rules, the BUMPERS are excluded from the measurement this year - thank goodness if the measurement is really 60 inches. See <R11-B>.
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