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Unread 09-01-2011, 22:37
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

I have read through all of the threads on this topic and have come to the conclusion that the best solution would be to make a minibot that is 12*12*12 that is self activated once it is deployed on to the pole. It would make it so that the deployment mechanism only has to push, swing, twist or whatever other way needed to get the the minibot to the pole.

The thought I had for activation was to use a limit switch in the normally open position to detect attachment to the pole. Once the minibot is on the pole it just takes off up the pole.

As for the deployment mechanism, I was thinking of using a notched drawer similar to the earlier sketch with short walls all of the way around it. When the deployment mechanism is retracted inside the hostbot, it would be covered by a top. That would prevent the minibot from being able to come out during game play. If all of the deployment mechanisms are designed to hold a minibot that is the maximum allowed dimensions, and every minibot is built to that standard, then sharing of them is easy.

On a scoring thought, can you make it so that all of the members on an alliance exchange minibots so everyone on the alliance gets coopertition bonuses?

Edit: Two members of an alliance can deploy a minibot, they exchange minibots with each other. Can they both get the coopertition bonus?

Last edited by bakejame : 09-01-2011 at 22:44. Reason: More info.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 10:08
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

My advice is to design the minibot to NOT use the NXT brick. The NXT brick isn't rated for shock loads like a typical FRC bot will experience. If you are the team creating the bots for others to use, then those will be YOUR NXT bricks on the field, significantly increasing the likelyhood that you'll have to spend a couple hundred extra dollars replacing them.

It's quite possible to do without a NXT. We are allowed 2 light switches ya know...
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Unread 10-01-2011, 14:06
maclaren maclaren is offline
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

This is what I was think for the minibot standardized interface.

I was thinking maybe something like equipping the minibot with a simple tab toward the top of the minibot that it could rest on.


The tab is really simple just a 1x1 inch tab with a clearance hole for a 1/4 post that is centered on the cross bar. The bottom side of the tab is 2" from the top of the minibot envelope.

The example minibot(red) is 12x12x11 so that the tab extends to fill out the 12x12x12 box.

I drew this example in the simplest form so that people would have the greatest chance to innovate in their minibots and deployment mechanisms.

The minibot is not really allowed to interact with the hostbot much except for physical attachment so I feel that trying to tether or connect the minibot to the host bot would not be a good idea. My philosophy is make the minibot interface as independent as possible. Teams that want to use an onboard NXT controller for their minibot will need to have some sort of a limit switch that will switch the minibot on for climbing.

I would love to hear anyone else's ideas on this.

Thanks everybody and have a wonderful build season!
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Unread 10-01-2011, 14:26
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

I like the way this is stated.
The rules seem to reward swapping minibots, in fact if you look at it, the only reason to use your own is if you think the ones that are offered won't perform.
Also, pls look at Captain Crunch above. Giving something a catchy name may help spread that word.

There are two audiences here: robot builders and MB builders. The highest value of a 'design standard' is to bridge the needs of both and encourage engineering cooperation.
If the MB builders propose some standards, them the robot builders have the opportunity to debate & respond.

(or for the cynical, just go back to the scoring arguments in sentence #2)
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Unread 10-01-2011, 15:01
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by caffel View Post
The rules seem to reward swapping minibots, ...
But just how big of a reward is it?
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Unread 10-01-2011, 16:22
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

One coopertition point if it makes it to the top. Coopertition points are the third tier of scoring teams. If two teams have the same W-L record and the same ranking points, coopertition scores are what decides it. Also, there is a separate reward for the coopertition points. Not a whole lot, but then you can also get the points for the game.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 17:17
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
One coopertition point if it makes it to the top. Coopertition points are the third tier of scoring teams. If two teams have the same W-L record and the same ranking points, coopertition scores are what decides it. Also, there is a separate reward for the coopertition points. Not a whole lot, but then you can also get the points for the game.
Actually, according to the current set of rules, Coopertition points are not factored into ranking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 5.3.7
• TEAMS will be broken into tiers based on their qualification score. A tier is made up of all TEAMS with the same qualification score. Tiers will be seeded in decreasing order by qualification score.
• Within each tier, TEAMS will be seeded in decreasing order by their ranking score.
• If any TEAMS within a tier have the same ranking score, they will then be seeded in decreasing order by their highest match score.
• If any TEAMS within a tier have the same ranking score and the same highest match score, then they will be seeded based on a random sorting by the FMS
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Unread 10-01-2011, 17:46
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

On the platform idea, I rigged up a quick cardboard platform and did a strength test. Two college textbooks (probably about 15 lbs), supported between two chairs, on a cardboard platform that I made ready in about 20 minutes including a little extra rigidity.

It's simple, properly supported it can easily handle a minibot, and then all the team has to do is get the minibot to the post and have the minibot start.

Could I make it better? Sure. I can if requested, by adding sides and maybe a top.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 18:45
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

Assuming that all the MBs have their own activation mechanism independent of the deployment mechanism and host bot the only thing that needs to be standard is the delivery system. Going along with what maclaren posted and bakejame i am in favor of making some sort of notched system that extends to the pole and the MB can just slide right out of the top.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 20:42
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMetalKong View Post
Actually, according to the current set of rules, Coopertition points are not factored into ranking.
Oops, Sorry. Should have doublechecked the rules.
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Unread 10-01-2011, 22:41
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

i see it like this... Teams should be responsible for the "depolyment" of the mini bot. They need to make a way to get the mini bot from their robot to the pole. The part where coopertition can ocme in is the wway the mini bot is attached to this deployment method. I belive the best thing is what has been suggested before, a simple tab with a whole that when the mini bot ciimbs the tower it slides off a screw or bolt through that hole. This way we are not limiting mini bots to be something that must seek the pole, and we are also not limiting robots to having to have a flat surface on top or whatever is agreed upon on their robot. Many designs may have other spaces where a mini bot deployment system will be better used than on top of a robot, and i think teams should create a way to launch the minibot themmselves, because a universal launch system will be very hard. That deployment system should simply be made such that it would work with the universal minibot i.e. aone with a tab at the top with a hole through it...

doing this will prevent us form limiting the minibot design, or requiring that it must seek the pole from the top of the platform. Also this will allow teams to use their space in different manners but still launch another teams minibot.

just my 2 cents...
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Unread 11-01-2011, 00:33
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

Maybe I am reiterating a part (or parts) of other posts already here, but if teams were to make a standardized deployment system, would it make more sense to "standardize" a method of connections (ie 1 per axis of the 12 inch cube) and their orientation? Or The deployment method itself?

If the connection locations and methods were to be standardized, I can picture a bunch of different designs (benefiting Veteran teams) with a universal hook up system that could benefit all teams by being able to "lock and load" many bots (ie especially rookies who haven't built a MiniBot could just build in the universal compartment, and be ready).

I don't know of a connection method off the top of my head, but I am sure there are methods that could work well for something like this.

Also, like darist was saying, a name for this would be cool, and I thought of BUMP. For Basic Universal MiniBot Package.
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Unread 11-01-2011, 00:41
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

Standardize how the minibot is transported around the field aboard the hostbot; deployment of that transportation method, whether a platform or a peg, to get the minibot to the pole is up to the team. That's the easiest way to do it, as different robot designs will lend themselves to different deployment methods.

I think the two easiest to implement so far are the platform (easily placed on any robot and should work with most or all minibots; maybe not so easy to move, but if placed at the base height could easily be equipped with a pusher to make sure the minibot gets to the pole) and the peg/loop system (not quite so easy to detach/launch the minibot, but very secure in terms of keeping the minibot aboard).

Think I might take a few minutes in the next couple of days to monkey around with the prototype I posted earlier to make it more secure/a little stronger. I might try combining the two good designs, too.
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Unread 11-01-2011, 20:54
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Think I might take a few minutes in the next couple of days to monkey around with the prototype I posted earlier to make it more secure/a little stronger. I might try combining the two good designs, too.
Done. 4 engineering textbooks with only minor bending. On cardboard.

Technical details: double layer of cardboard on the bottom, held together with duct tape and packing tape. The wire that's visible is meant to represent a robot-based pin release. I made sure that all the books were off the support chairs for the test--I'd estimate about 20-30lbs.
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Unread 12-01-2011, 02:29
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Re: Minibot Standardization (FRC 2011: Logomotion)

I really like this idea, and as a close-to-rookie team member myself, I’d love to be able to use this standard to help the alliance.

For stability during the match, I prefer maclaren’s simple tab-and-pin rather than a potentially unstable tray. However I can imagine that slowing or even stopping the minibot if the deployment isn’t aligned properly. I propose the minibot have a C-channel mounted on the side, with the opening facing downward. Hostbots can then have a slot that the outermost side of the C-channel slides into, and it shouldn’t matter where it stores them during play or how it deploys them. The compromise with this is that not all minibots could be modified at the competition to be compatible.

For activating the minibot, a pole sensor seems by far the easiest choice in terms of compatibility. It also limits the hostbot’s duties to simply positioning the minibot.

I hope my idea is easy enough to follow, but if not, the graphic attached shows the hostbot in black and the minibot in blue.
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