Mini Bot - displeasure

[Chris is me]

I'd make a long post but between Art's post and what I've said in the other thread I have nothing more to add other than that I am incredibly disappointed in FIRST.

Maybe if FIRST wanted to make FTC teams across the country they'd switch to Vex.

[ptan]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

I can tell you here in Canada there are many times more VEX teams then FTC teams...

Thats MAINLY because they DID NOT HOLD an FTC tournament in Ontario!! We were an Ontario FTC team that could not find a tournament, and then we had to reluctantly switch over to VEX. I even OFFERED to run an FTC tournament in Ontario last year to no avail.

[Tytus Gerrish]

I want to make it out of 1/8" plate with the plasma cutter. Tetrix is dissapointing, but we have lots of it, WOO! I love Tetrix. its like the piano there a finite number of keys but an infinite number of sounds you can make. the design variations in the PoleBots will be entertaining by themselves. Unless everyone just makes the same one, but whats the fun in that? it would be as exciting as the dj playing only twinkle twinkle little star.

[huggy]

Do you know that you get a free FTC kit of parts from the First Choice Andymark site?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by huggy

Do you know that you get a free FTC kit of parts from the First Choice Andymark site?

We know. We don't get enough parts, though.

And some of us hate political decisions, "smart" or otherwise. There's a reason VEX is becoming a force to reckon with and FTC isn't exactly doing that.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by huggy

Do you know that you get a free FTC kit of parts from the First Choice Andymark site?

Could one of the teams in Mexico/Israel/Brazil/England/NotTheContinentalUS please tell us what shipping for that is and when you can expect to get it? I have a hunch that it is both expensive and much later than us in the US. I assume it is the same for Canada too.

[billbo911]

I think we all ought to re-read <G19> and <R92> VERY CLOSELY!!

I'll give you a hint. 0<1.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Could one of the teams in Mexico/Israel/Brazil/England/NotTheContinentalUS please tell us what shipping for that is and when you can expect to get it? I have a hunch that it is both expensive and much later than us in the US. I assume it is the same for Canada too.

Thread called "Countries which don't have FTC" is at http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...light=mini-bot

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by gblake

Thread called "Countries which don't have FTC" is at http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...light=mini-bot

Thanks for the link. I pulled the answer to my own question from that thread.

Originally Posted by sloteera

The only problem to international teams about purchase these items, is that we need aproximately 3 weeks to receive them via Fedex!

I did see your suggestion in that thread as to a possible solution (snipped here for convenience). I like it and feel it is within the spirit of FIRST and Coopertition. I mean, I REALLY like this idea. Doesn't change my opinion of the minbots as a whole though. Thanks for answering at least some of my concerns though.

Originally Posted by gblake

Disclaimer: I have not studied the rules - This is based on what I heard during Kick Off.

The Dave/Woody/Dean trio emphasized that teams may share mini-Bots with other teams.

At least on the surface this would mean that an overseas team, or a Michigan team or a ___ team could contact another team or two that
1) Will be at the same regional, (or is an FTC-only team near that regional???).
2) Has experience using the Tetrix equipment well,
3) Has a large-enough stockpile of Tetrix equipment that won't already be in use for FTC events, and
4) That would enjoy forming friendships with a team that isn't Tetrix-savvy.

Ask them to build 2-3 mini-bots and let your team use one. They can help you keep it in good working order during the event and they can collaborate with you to design how to deploy it.

I suspect that more than one team will do this just for the GP fun of it, without having any specific partners.

Also if a team has a lightning-fast mini-bot, then they will obviously want to offer to loan a copy to their allies in each match. I think that building an ordinary hostbot and two copies of the world's best (fast, easy to deploy, and RELIABLE) mini-bot is likely to get a team invited onto an elimination alliance (30+20 points is significant contribution to an alliance's bottom line).

So, teams that aren't able to emphasize the mini-bot construction, can emphasize the other parts of the game AND being able to deploy loaned mini-bots.

Blake
PS: If, for example, a London FRC team wanted to collaborate with a Virginia FTC-only team, and use (in every match) a mini-bot the FTC team built, the London team should confirm (in the official Q&A) that combining the FTC team's people and equipment with their FRC team would be legal. The GDC might only allow FRC teams to borrow mini-bots from the other FRC teams that are in their alliance for any given match.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by billbo911

I think we all ought to re-read <G19> and <R92> VERY CLOSELY!!

I'll give you a hint. 0<1.

What are we missing? This seems pretty crystal clear to me.

Originally Posted by <G19> after Update #1

MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous and move up the POST solely through electric energy provided after DEPLOYMENT by the permitted, unaltered battery and converted to mechanical energy by the permitted unaltered motors (and associated, appropriate circuitry).

source

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

What are we missing? This seems pretty crystal clear to me.



source

Yep crystal, you read and posted it exactly right, but what about <R92>?

Again, 0<1.

[jvriezen]

Actually, I like the Minibot arrangement. Note that in Team Update #1, it states that the minibot doesn't have to be built by your team, or even another FRC team at the tournament. It can come from any FTC team and That team doesn't have to be near you geographically. You can contact a team of your choice, partner with them, agree to a deployment 'interface' and meet them at the regional. Or they can just ship you the minibot so you can practice with it and they don't even have to show up at the regional!

This is what engineering is about. Rarely do you have a big engineering design where all the parts and interfaces between parts are done in one location.

FIRST is accomplishing several things here... Exposing FTC teams to FRC more directly, and encouraging normally separate teams to collaborate-- they don't have to be from the same organization, same city or even the same country!

You can get twenty FTC teams to provide you with Minibots, if you are able and they are willing.

John
Team 2530

[EricH]

Originally Posted by billbo911

Yep crystal, you read and posted it exactly right, but what about <R92>?

Again, 0<1.

Grab your blue box and tell me what you're going to do about the bold portion:

[bluebox]<G19> means that HOSTBOTS are not allowed to launch the MINIBOT up the pole at the TARGET, or otherwise contribute to the vertical movement of the MINIBOT. Energy for vertical movement may not be stored in the MINIBOT before DEPLOYMENT (except that which is contained within the battery and excluding incidental kinetic energy stored in the motors or wheels, but NOT, for example, in a flywheel).[/bluebox]

The only thing I can think of is that you spend some time "preparing" for a sudden spring after deployment. Are we kind of on the same wavelength here?

P.S. Aren't we in the middle of the FTC competition season, AKA that time when ain't nobody gonna want to lend you FTC parts/motors/stuff?

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Navid Shafa

With the limited resources allowed, I'd be surprised to see a minibot that was able to do significant damage, even with the old rule set. The plates are designed to take at least 4-5 Newtons I'd bet even more. Knowing FIRST, these things will be made durable anyways, considering how much wear and tear it will receive at a regional event. I think it's A, a safety issue and B, a uniformity and regulation issue.

Actually, we were concerned we'd blow the top off the scoring pole. Using surgical tubing as an energy storage device in your minibot, you could easily put several hundred pounds of force into spinning your wheels to climb the pole with some very simply engineering. Hint - that's exactly how many teams kicked the soccer balls and launched the track balls. Now picture the same with something weighing under a pound total.

Limiting us to only the electrical energy available in the 12V battery is a smart move on FIRST's part. Limiting us to FTC components only is disappointing. However, it is what it is - we'll move on like everyone else and do our best to figure out a way to make a minibot with no FTC teams to give us parts.

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by EricH

P.S. Aren't we in the middle of the FTC competition season, AKA that time when ain't nobody gonna want to lend you FTC parts/motors/stuff?

According to the FIRST FTC website, by the time we get to the FRC week 1 competitions, 111 of the 118 FTC competitions will have been completed. After week 1, only 3 are left to run. That means that there are a lot of FTC teams who have already lost and whose season is over, and maybe they would love a new challenge and would love to help an FRC team.