Team Update #1

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Steve W

As for the size restriction it was obvious that there had been a typo, it was a matter of which way it would go (published inch or metric size). Why are so many people astounded by these minor changes?

It was hardly obvious Steve. It was a valid design constraint, albeit a big one. We were prepared to deal with it and now we'll be prepared to deal with a 84" cylinder.

The changes were anything but minor though.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I can't believe veterans here on CD are turning the Update into a VRC/FTC gripefest. This was a minibot challenge, not a PVC tube launching challenge. It's sickening that people are crying foul just because now they're forced to use a 'competing' or 'inferior' product. If you don't like the product because of principles, then don't do a minibot on principle. The rest of us who aren't strong-armed into one program or another will enjoy seeing the minibots make it to the top.

Karthik, Cory, if I didn't respect you two so much for your technical prowess and general logical GP practices I would be hard pressed to hold back the tirade I could type right now.

Ummm, my posts in this thread have been about how 148 & 217 didn't have a hanger on their robots during the 2010 competition season. I also commented on how I enjoy Cory's blunt statements. ("I have no desire to watch a battle of who sucks less." I thought this was hilarious) Nowhere did I mention VEX, VRC, FTC, minibots, competing products or anything else. I've included links for your reference.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=22
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=35

So if you respect me so much, please consider not putting words in my mouth. I have no problem standing behind the words that I've actually spoken, I have a hard time doing the same with ones that are being conjured out of the over active imaginations of others.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I can't believe veterans here on CD are turning the Update into a VRC/FTC gripefest. This was a minibot challenge, not a PVC tube launching challenge. It's sickening that people are crying foul just because now they're forced to use a 'competing' or 'inferior' product. If you don't like the product because of principles, then don't do a minibot on principle. The rest of us who aren't strong-armed into one program or another will enjoy seeing the minibots make it to the top.

Karthik, Cory, if I didn't respect you two so much for your technical prowess and general logical GP practices I would be hard pressed to hold back the tirade I could type right now.

Jesse it's not about FTC vrs VRC, I think FIRST's behavior and decisions fly's in the face of their stated mission of inspiration for purely selfish reasons. I (and judging form the many PM's I have received, many others) think they are acting in a very un-GP way.

Are you suggesting that I just not say anything and sit back and smile while the program that I love is corrupted?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Don't forget: the difference between "wow, what a great deploy, first place" and "the refs have disabled your tower" is so infinitesimally small and so much more important than previous end games that I can see nothing good coming of it.

Either teams will release early and get away with it or teams will jump the gun and get their tower disabled based on a number the field cannot precisely display and that no one can see while simultaneously staring at the base of the tower.

You do realize that we have a several hundred dollar control system in charge of the robot, right? Give yourself a deployment arming button and start a timer as soon as the robot enters enabled teleop. If you're armed and the timer hits 110 seconds, fire the minibot. If you're depending on your driver's reflexes, you're wasting valuable time.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Karthik, Cory, if I didn't respect you two so much for your technical prowess and general logical GP practices I would be hard pressed to hold back the tirade I could type right now.

Find a post in this thread where either Karthik or Cory posted anything about Vex, VRC, or even FTC. You can't. That's not what they were complaining about at all.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I can't believe veterans here on CD are turning the Update into a VRC/FTC gripefest. This was a minibot challenge, not a PVC tube launching challenge. It's sickening that people are crying foul just because now they're forced to use a 'competing' or 'inferior' product. If you don't like the product because of principles, then don't do a minibot on principle. The rest of us who aren't strong-armed into one program or another will enjoy seeing the minibots make it to the top.

Karthik, Cory, if I didn't respect you two so much for your technical prowess and general logical GP practices I would be hard pressed to hold back the tirade I could type right now.

I'd be pissed if we had to use vex, mindstorms, an arduino, anything. Let teams decide what they want to use.

They made a substantial game play decision for political reasons, that's immature.

[BrendanB]

Okay everyone I think that this is going way too far! I've calmed down since last night a little and realized oh well, then we will make sure that we do whatever we can to save every ounce of weight and get up as fast as we can. Hey, someone has to be the first up that pole! So what if our design is no longer legal or our arm doesn't have to fit a 60" constraint. Let's move along with the season. Things like this happen all the time and how we deal with it determines character. This past weekend our store did inventory and I spent 2 hours counting thousands of packs of cigarettes. When we are about to finish up and every other employee is leaving my group is told that we were given the wrong format and that we need to start over and none of our numbers were valid. I was originally furious because all I had on my mind was the new challenge, but complaining didn't get it done or get me home faster. Hey, maybe Andy Grady is on to something. The minibots will be a very on the edge of your seat ending when it is all tied up and all four are neck and neck.

FIRST is making their decisions, we are not being forced to compete in FRC, get over the update, get over each other, and make your robot!

[JesseK]

Ah, I see what I did. I linked a Sandrag post to Cory due to the 254/968 alliance by mistake, and Karthik's comments added to it due to his relationship with IFI.

Karthik, sure, nothing was directly said. Yet your tone has always been pro-VEX and anti-FTC so I suppose I take everything you post regarding the two with that bias in mind. Regardless, I apologize.

Adam, your bias was present from your first post about the inferiority of FTC in this thread. Change of heart?

My own opinions -- 1-second PVC tube launches aren't challenging at all given the lack of restriction on materials for the FRC bot. And everyone's missed the fact that at least the GDC was prudent enough to realize the differences between the rules and the intent of the game on Day 3. Everyone (who's speaking against it) acts like this change is the worst thing since holes in Suisse Cheese. Given FIRST's political-play type history in other nuances within the organization, what makes Engineers think they should be exempt from that behavior just because it's a "technical challenge" (referencing the FTC-only rules).

The only thing that really NEEDS to be TETRIX on the minibot are the battery, motors and wheels. Given the allowed materials, everything else is custom metal. Heck, even the wheels could probably be custom made within the allowed parts.

Have I stirred up enough of a hornets nest here? It it even possible for Engineers to see something other than their own points of view?

[SteveGPage]

Let me share a quick story.

While Alan Shepard was sitting at the top of his Mercury space craft waiting to be the first American into space, there had been several issues, the count-down had been stopped and restarted several times. At T- minus two minutes and forty seconds and counting, Shepard heard that dreaded word again, "Hold". Another problem had stopped the countdown, yet again. Getting frustrated, he yelled, "I've been in here more than three hours. I'm a h*** of a lot cooler than you guys. Why don't you just fix your little problem and light this candle?"

The countdown to the ship date is ticking. So let's all be cool, and

Light this candle!

[CMills]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Okay everyone I think that this is going way too far! I've calmed down since last night a little and realized oh well, then we will make sure that we do whatever we can to save every ounce of weight and get up as fast as we can. Hey, someone has to be the first up that pole! So what if our design is no longer legal or our arm doesn't have to fit a 60" constraint. Let's move along with the season......

FIRST is making their decisions, we are not being forced to compete in FRC, get over the update, get over each other, and make your robot!

I have to say, this is probably my favorite post. The truth, the real bottom line. Things CHANGE. We are an organization of engineers or at-least engineer-like minds.....since when do things not change. Somebody tell me one robot they built that not one thing changed. Whether it be a controled factor or not.

It's a trade off. Bigger play radius, more contraints on the mini bot. I see nothing wrong with that.

P.S. FTC, VRC....can you say NASCAR vs IRL?

Both are the same "sport" both have their parts and their rules. We compete in the FIRST Robotics Competition, therefore I don't see it unreasonable to use FTC parts, if this were something different then I would make that claim later.

[CassCity2081]

The one thing that I don not understand is peoples comments about "clone bots". If anything this team update got away from having everybody being a one pound box on a surgical tube slingshot that if everything went just right it would hit the top tower and not damage the field and if anything went wrong it would result in injuries to robots, the field, or people. Try not to get mad that everyone thought they found a 469 like loophole to the game and the GDC didn't let it go. There is still plenty of time for new concepts, if you didn't like a challenge like this you would not be a part of FIRST.

[dodar]

Just wondering but didnt they change vex/FVC to FTC? isnt Vex = First Tech Challenge? So people saying Karthik is pro-vex and anti-ftc is contradictory.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by dodar

Just wondering but didnt they change vex/FVC to FTC? isnt Vex = First Tech Challenge? So people saying Karthik is pro-vex and anti-ftc is contradictory.

No, VEX became VRC, a separate competition, and FTC is now based on an alternate kit.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Cory

No, VEX became VRC, a separate competition, and FTC is now based on an alternate kit.

So FIRST has 5 different competitions(Jr.LL, LL, VRC, FTC, FRC)?

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by dodar

So FIRST has 5 different competitions(Jr.LL, LL, VRC, FTC, FRC)?

FIRST (the organization) no longer has anything to do with VRC.

Many FIRST teams do compete in VRC for historical reasons (they spent a lot of capital on Vex kits) and for perceived advantages of that program vs. or in addition to FTC.