Mini Bot - displeasure

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by EricH

They turned a mousetrap car competition into an FTC competition.

Ah, I see. It didn't occur to me to not get the FTC mini kit, although now I can see why some teams might not. I hadn't planned on using the motors, but I figured the mini-kit might have something useful down the road.

I never seriously believed that FIRST would allow projectile minibots, and I fairly doubt anyone else did, but I am terribly disappointed by the lack of springs or other stored energy. My intention had been to pursue a flywheel design, something I think could have been done safely and would have been very fun to watch. And flywheels sound wicked cool.

I can agree with a lot of the displeasure being voiced (now that I'm not so confused!). I was psyched when I saw the mini bots at kickoff. The shine has definitely worn off now. It went from being a really cool challenge within the game to playing FTC. I guess I play in FRC because I like the access to more powerful options and more technology. Limiting me to FTC's bag of tricks makes me wonder why I'm not just playing in FTC (or, better yet, in one of the VEX based games). As it is, it seems like the winning mini-bot design is the one that bears as little resemblance to FTC as possible, which can't be what FIRST was striving for here.

Thank you for the clarification, though. It seemed for a moment that the team update might have had more insidious implications then I thought. I really can't keep all this FTC, Vex, Tetrix, NXT etc. stuff straight. It all looks like erector sets to me!

[JohnHorton]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

This exactly. I was very much looking forward to all the neat methods of mechanical energy storage teams were going to use to power their minibots.

I agree. I was really hoping to see some new and interesting methods of doing this. People with flywheels, surgical tube energy storage, etc.
It reminded me of that scene in Apollo 13, where they needed to fit a square CO2 scrubber into a round hole, they dumped out a bag of parts on the table and said "This is what we have. Build something.".
That'd be the true spirit of FIRST, not this.

Originally Posted by iCurtis

The real question is, just how many VEX stickers will Team IFI plaster on their Tetrix minibots?

I think we'll do the same at 1100

[mechE131]

Originally Posted by JohnHorton

It reminded me of that scene in Apollo 13, where they needed to fit a square CO2 scrubber into a round hole, they dumped out a bag of parts on the table and said "This is what we have. Build something.".
That'd be the true spirit of FIRST, not this.

Indeed, it was the first thing that popped into my head as well. And I believe the entire structure of the minibot aspect of the game is the true spirit of FIRST.

[M80]

Does anyone know if we absolutely have to use the NXT controller because it sounds pretty optional

[JohnHorton]

Originally Posted by M80

Does anyone know if we absolutely have to use the NXT controller because it sounds pretty optional

It is optional, so far.

[GW Kalrod]

Originally Posted by JohnHorton

It is optional, so far.

The whole lightswitch thing makes it seem unlikely the NXT block will be required...

[Joice 1772]

what would be the minimum size of the mini bots?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Joice 1772

what would be the minimum size of the mini bots?

Big enough for the specified battery.

Oh? You want to move vertically? Big enough for the battery and one or two FTC motors, and associated wiring and framework.

[E2207]

Originally Posted by Justin Stiltner

I am not sure that everyone has the proper perspective on this. The only Tetrix parts that are required are the battery (this has a 20A fuse in line) and the up to two motors. From team update #1 the allowable aluminum parts are:
Sheet
90 degree angle
U channel
Tube
Bar

So you are not forced to use the tetrix metal parts.

Further you are allowed Polycarbonate, and any mechanical hardware you wish.
so in the building materials respect the project is very similar to the way FRC was before about 2002.


As for the innovation part of things, I see this like a race where every car has the same engine. You have a maximum amount of power available to you, just like all the others. However the chassis you put it in is up to you. Personally I think you will see a big difference between the teams that just build a mini bot with the tetrix system, and ones that do a lot of engineering on their mini bot.
By a lot of engineering I mean using materials in a smart manner, using the design software given to the teams to lighten the bot. Choosing proper gear ratios to draw the maximum power from the motors as the robot climbs.

I foresee the fastest bot being only the two motors, the battery, and a polycarbonate frame with custom polycarbonate gears and shafts that uses the household light switches for motor control.

Think of this as an opportunity to show the students more involved engineering skills such as FEA and design optimization.

Is it allowed to use a belt drive on the minibot?

[Justin Stiltner]

All parts on the mini bot must either be a tetrix part, the NXT brick, or made from materials on the list for the mini bot. You could take surgical tubing and make a belt, and make some pulleys to use it with, it would then be legal.

Or you could potentially use this
http://shop.pitsco.com/store/detail....23&c=1&t=0&l=0

as it is a tetrix part.
For official word however you should use the Q&A forums on usfirst.org

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by E2207

Is it allowed to use a belt drive on the minibot?

I would say to use chain instead... but seeing as Tetrix is charging $80 for what is essentially a little bit of 25 series chain, I would see what you could do with the gears they give you and hope that somehow we don't have to throw away our budgets on "special" chain.

[jamie_1930]

Originally Posted by SteveGPage

According to the FIRST FTC website, by the time we get to the FRC week 1 competitions, 111 of the 118 FTC competitions will have been completed. After week 1, only 3 are left to run. That means that there are a lot of FTC teams who have already lost and whose season is over, and maybe they would love a new challenge and would love to help an FRC team.

Steve this is exactly the position my FTC team is in. We go to the Clarkson Regional and then we're done (can't afford more). Now we're working to get two other local teams we've been affiliated with over the years mini bots for competition. I think many other FTC teams would be willing to help FRC teams.

For teams in Rochester, NY, all 2,000 of us, yes there aren't many FTC teams, 3750 at R-H is now busy with the two schools we're helping, but the Harley School of Music also has a team you could contact.

The intent of the mini-bot isn't there to punish teams who don't have FTC teams near them, in my opinion it's to reward those who have gone and focused on outreach over the years, for instance an FRC team who went to another school and created an FTC team. And to just use a quick quote we've all heard before "FIRST isn't about robots" teams that took this message to heart should be in a good position.

Although I like to think of that as it's intent it is above all another engineering challenge for us, so quit complaining and get to work! You're not restricted to just FTC parts, you could use aluminum tube, sheet, angle, and channel. All things we in FRC are familiar with. They specify the battery, controllers, and motors you can use, which sounds a lot like FRC to me. Now I just (12:56 EST 1/13/2011) checked the tetrix site that FIRST teams use to purchase parts and they have motors and batteries in stock.

Just to reiterate one more time (and use some capitols)

QUIT COMPLAINING! sit down and think about what you CAN do NOT what you CAN'T! We're engineers so let's solve this problem.

[artdutra04]

After my initial negative reaction to the refined Minibot rules, which was probably more due to the fact that it meant a lot of work in our fairly aggressive prototyping schedule was wasted, I don't really have many problems with the Minibot rules now*. After thinking it over and running calculations, I'm very confident we can build a very competitive Minibot under the new rules.

* The only remaining issue I have is that the Minibot is of such importance to the game, that a minimum of one (or two) Tetrix motors and the Tetrix battery should have been included in the KoP.

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by GW Kalrod

The whole lightswitch thing makes it seem unlikely the NXT block will be required...

Originally Posted by JohnHorton

It is optional, so far.

Originally Posted by M80

Does anyone know if we absolutely have to use the NXT controller because it sounds pretty optional

I posted a question on the Q&A forum today asking this exact question.

We should have the official answer in a couple days.

[pilum40]

I'm not very pleased from a budgetary point of view to spend limited granted FRC funds on more FTC parts. Our FTC team is rookie this year. This compounds our quandry as now we have to build a complex FTC bot AND build another FTC bot with no experience from the FTC group. We'll muddle through but it has definitely caused a lot of heartburn for me as a coach. Now I can figure out how keep the arm/handling system for FRC simple and suggest it to the team.....arrgh...I'm consumed by FIRST and I am an addict!